Arabic-L:PEDA:Colloquial First Discussion
Dilworth Parkinson
dilworth_parkinson at BYU.EDU
Fri Jun 15 17:05:30 UTC 2007
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Arabic-L: Fri 15 Jun 2007
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-------------------------Directory------------------------------------
1) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion (response from Mustafa)
2) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
3) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
4) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
5) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
6) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
7) Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
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1)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:Mustafa Mughazy <mustafa.mughazy at wmich.edu>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
Thanks to all of those who responded to my announcement by posting
comments on the list or by emailing me directly. We are taking all these
comments in consideration and we are seriously interested in what you
think.
Initially, I was worried that this posting might reignite the old debate
of whether colloquial dialects should be taught at all. However, ALL the
responses I got assume that students should learn both MSA and a
dialect; the question now is how and when. I think this is a major
paradigm shift that should be noted.
For considerations of space and your time, I did not include all the
details in my initial posting. I think now is a better time to clarify a
couple of points.
We do not intend to use Romanized transcription or transliteration at
all. Colloquial Arabic will be exclusively taught in the Arabic script
with minor modifications to accommodate the dialect (these modifications
are not idiosyncratic; they are used in MSA to encode things like the v,
p, and g). This way, knowledge of the writing system can easily transfer
to MSA. I completely agree that teaching ONLY colloquial in
transliteration leads to illiterate Arabic speakers; there are enough of
those already in the Arab world.
The textbook we are using for the dialect is in the Arabic script and it
includes all the MSA-Colloquial shared words and grammar points in the
Al-kitaab I, which students will start using in the second semester.
Students will start Unit 1 of Al-kitaab knowing most of the words
already. Hopefully that will speed up their acquisition of MSA.
Learning a dialect and then Fusha sounds to me like moving from simple
to complicated, which is a natural progress of learning anything;
tricycle then a bicycle, and for the very talented ones a monocycle.
For programs with significant numbers of heritage students, I think the
colloquial first approach will promote a fair/equal opportunity learning
environment. Heritage students can test out of the colloquial semester.
In the second semester, the gap between them and non-heritage students
will be less problematic.
We can all agree that studying abroad is useful when learning any
modern/living language. However, I do not think studying MSA/Classical
Arabic alone in the Middle East is a particularly productive activity.
It is no different from studying those varieties of Arabic in the US
because those students will not get immersed in MSA or Classical Arabic
(we might need a time machine for this). If students want to be immersed
in MSA/CA, I recommend the libraries of the U of Michigan, Illinois, and
Georgetown. Exposure to the culture is invaluable, but I am completely
against the assumption that students can pick up colloquial Arabic on
the street. Maybe some students are good at this, but the vast majority
needs instruction.
Finally, I looked at various medieval Arabic texts and there is quite a
bit of colloquial in them, so even students who plan to become scholars
of medieval studies still need to know colloquial. I have seen many
scholars of anthropology, political science, and sociology who spent
years studying MSA only, and ended up using interpreters when they
conducted research in the Middle East. I have no idea how government
agents use MSA to do their business.
By the way, how do you stop a car in Iraqi Arabic? The American gesture
for stopping cars looks very much like the Egyptian gesture for greeting
someone who is far (in a car); no wonder they do not stop!
Mustafa Mughazy
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2)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:Nimat Hafez Barazangi <nhb2 at cornell.edu>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
Although each point raised so far has its own credibility, my feeling
is that we are basically forgetting one of the basic characteristics
of Arabic as a "Diglossic' one, as well as the cognitive processes
that language learners experience both in understanding and deploying
a language. Some of us may not agree with Ferguson's argument, but my
empirical studies of both Arab children acquiring Arabic as a first
language and American adult students learning Arabic as a second/
foreign language indicate that learners need the basic grammatical
elements in order to make sense of what they are processing before
they are able to deploy the language.
This need was particularly evident with the American students
learning Levantine first. They did not have a point of reference to
compare the grammatical structure, hence they were using the grammar
of either their first language, or other languages that they have
learned before, in order to internalize the variations in the
structure, especially when they were switching gender, or matching an
adjective to a noun, etc. Hence, they were missing both the concept
and the application. Also, those who were learning colloquial first,
had difficulty relating text to sound or the written to the oral.
Perhaps we need to conduct more empirical studies that are not
conducted by those who instruct one way or the other. If you are
interested to read more on the latter study, consult the following
web site:
http://www.eself-learning-arabic.cornell.edu, Check "Arabic Self-
Learning" publications.
Best wishes,
Nimat
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3)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:Frederic Cadora <frederic.cadora at uc.edu>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
Consider the argument presented in the following article some 40
years ago:
F. Cadora, The Teaching of Spoken and Written Arabic," Language
Learning,
Vol. 22, Nos. 3 and 4 (1965), pp. 133-6
F. Cadora
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4)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From: Fadia Hamid <fetfet at sbcglobal.net>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
This is an excellent detailed response David. The points you raise
are valid and merit a closer look at the material available to teach
Arabic. I teach at the High School level and the evaluations of my
Arabic 1 students all included comments about how they wish they had
learned more colloquial vocabulary/expressions.
I believe your point about "what is the goal of studying the
language" is of utmost importance when deciding whether the focus
should be on colloquial or MSA.
And yes, you are right, native speakers, and I am one, haldy ever
speak in fusha or use literary Arabic.
Great discussion!
Fadia Hamid
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5)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:jeremy.palmer at gmail.com
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
Discussing the issue concerning the teaching of spoken Arabic is
useful and hopefully fruitful. As an aspiring professor of Arabic
second language acquisition I would like to simply include my own
intuition regarding the topic. Having spoken with many fellow
students of Arabic, it is fairly clear that the majority of us want
to learn Arabic to communicate in as natural a manner as possible. It
also seems to me that the up-and-coming generation of Arabic students
and teachers will be pushing for spoken Arabic instruction. Now that
I have revealed an obvious bias in favor of teaching spoken Arabic,
let me state that I hope we will all be considerate of differing
opinions and work together to find successful curricula.
Jeremy Palmer
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6)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:dina elzarka <dina.elzarka at uni-graz.at>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
I could not agree more with Mustafa Mughazy and David Willmsen, as
far as colloquial first is concerned. We have used Al-Kitaab for some
years now, that means, that we start with a little small talk in
ammiyya using Alif Baa first, but then switch to Fusha only. But this
is unsatisfactory, as the little ammiyya in the beginning not quite
takes students to the "breakthrough level" according to the European
Language Portfolio for example, and most students also forget most of
it during the rest of the year.
I have only tried once to go on using ammiyya and fusha in parallel
as suggested by the authors of Al-Kitaab, but the outcome was
disastrous (there may have been other factors responsible for that as
well). Our students will ultimately become translators and
interpreters, which means that we have to bring them to a reasonable
level of proficiency in MSA within two years when they start the
basic translation programme.
I wonder if there is a solution to the written/colloquial problem if
you only have that little time. If anyone has a good experience
teaching both varieties in parallel, I'd be happy to know. Any
comments and suggestions welcome.
Kind regards,
Dina El Zarka
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7)
Date: 15 Jun 2007
From:"John Joseph Colangelo" <yaacolangelo at hotmail.com>
Subject:Colloquial First Discussion
Dear Sir,
You quoted Qafiseh saying:
He points out that students who begin their
study of Arabic with exposure to the vernacular are generally more
motivated and successful in their study than are those who begin with
fusha.
I beg to disagree. I would like to see any of your students or non
native professors compare his or her Arabic to people such as Hamza
Yousef (from the Zaytuna Institute), Dr. Umar Abdullah (from the
Nawawee Institute of Chicago) or Dr. Timothy Winters (a scholar at
the University of Cambridge). I would really like to know what you
base your conclusions on. The people I have quoted are just a few of
the many students who chose the study of Fusha first and then
acquired a usage of a dialect “on the way.” I have listened to
orientalists worried about dialect and not only do they have a
foreign accent in dialect but their classical Arabic is to say the
least not up to par (See Alberto Fernández).
As a possible solution I already asked the Arab colleague why
students aren´t taught in classical Arabic in the classrooms. I still
haven´t received an answer. Maybe it´s because the professors who
spent their two to three years in Egypt didn´t worry about learning
to speak Arabic per se and now cannot even if they tried. Dialect is
not something that needs serious classroom study (unless you are off
to Iraq and you want the people to think you are from the Anbar
region. Don´t worry, they’ll know you aren´t.) But joking aside, I
also stated that it took me a year to understand well one of the
Arabic dialects and by the second year I was using it when I deemed
it necessary to do so: At the souq and in taxis!
Then you say, Professor, that well educated native speakers cannot
speak proper classical Arabic ( or vowelize it). All I can say is
that I know many Arabs, many (even among Moroccans) who can speak
with nominal declensions not to mention the fact that I have also
seen many speakers on Al-Jazeera (of course with the exception of
Mohammed Hussein Haikal who is so fond of writing in Egyptian dialect
something I personally detest) who decline their nouns and use the
right vowels for their verbs really well. And to the disgust of the
enemies of the Arabic language things are improving thanks to the
mass media revolution in the Arab world.
You then say, I quote:
I have worked for years with Arabic interpreters and teachers of
translation and interpreting whose very professional success hinges
upon their proficiency in composing and declaiming in fusha.
Well, if the issue is being a court interpreter for Moroccan
immigrants who like mixing Bereber with Moroccan dialect then knowing
dialect can be useful. However, if you are talking about conference
interpreters then you must have observed the wrong people in the
wrong place. I know several Arabic interpreters from countries such
as Morocco, Lebanon and Egypt and they use correct vowelization when
speaking. Not one of them has used dialect in the booth and if they
did, they would never be hired again.
Again, I have lived in several parts of the Arab world for over seven
years and Classical Arabic is not limited to radio or television. It
is used in the classroom, in the mosque ( I haven´t been to a
Christian Arab church but I would imagine they also use fusha), in
speeches, at dinners, between Arabs from different countries. And if
you are going to teach your students Egyptian and then to discuss
linguistic issues in Egyptian then your students are going to have
their professional horizons severly limited, limited to where
Egyptian dialect is used. And their inablity to use classical Arabic
in a classroom will make them functional illiterates.
Finally, let me just say that there are many dialects and wasting
peoples time on the acquisition of the Egyptian dialect will prevent
them from learning one of the richest languages in the world. I
previously mentioned in another letter that I am not against teaching
dialect. I believe, however, students after acquiring a solid
foundation in classical Arabic can be given an introductory course on
several dialects such as Moroccan, Egyptian, Syrian and Gulf.
And before I go when I go to the Arab world people ask me what part
of the Arab world I am from and then when I speak to them in a bit of
dialect they ask me what part of the Arabian pensinsula I am from
just like when I speak Spanish they ask me what part of Spain I come
from.
J.J.C.
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End of Arabic-L: 15 Jun 2007
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