<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Arabic-L: Mon 28 Jan 2008</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Moderator: Dilworth Parkinson <<a href="mailto:dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu">dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To post messages to the list, send them to <a href="mailto:arabic-l@byu.edu">arabic-l@byu.edu</a>]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To unsubscribe, send message from same address you subscribed from to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:listserv@byu.edu">listserv@byu.edu</a> with first line reading:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> unsubscribe arabic-l ]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Directory------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1) Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2) Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers and Orange Books</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3) Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers and Orange Books</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Messages-----------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 28 Jan 2008</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:"abdel khila" <<a href="mailto:akhila@hotmail.com">akhila@hotmail.com</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers<br>This issue of native speakers is not unique to Arabic. I am a native speaker of Moroccan Arabic, I also speak other languages (French, Spanish, Arabic, etc). I currently teach French and although I am not a native speaker contrary to what some of my colleague think, I do speak it fluently. I am certified in ESL. Now the issue here is whether that native speaker is qualified to teach period. Just because you are a native English speaker, it does not mean you can teach English. I have a masters degree in Teaching Foreign languages in addition to a certification to teach ESL, yet some find it odd that I could teach English in the U.S where there are many native speakers! Even though I share a lot in common with any potential ESL students I might teach...I have experience learning English as a FL, I am qualified and versed in FL methodology and approaches, and I am what we call in the profession a sympathetic listener (some native speakers tend to take things for granted which leads to a lack of comprehensible input for their students). Native speakers of any language bring a lot to the table as long as they are qualified to teach and as long as they would have followed a training/degree program in FL education. In the public schools where I teach, a certification is a requirement. To be certified, you would have had to complete a degree program in addition to taking the proficiency and written tests. Certain universities require the candidate to take the ACTFL (American Council of Teachers of Foreign Language) OPI (Oral proficiency Test) and the WPT (Written Proficiency Test). Both tests are rigorous and test the candidate ability to both write and speak at different levels, the highest being Superior. The OPI for example is a 45 minute interview via the phone where the candidate is pushed to his/her limits through a series of questions in the context of what might seem as an informal conversation with a person on the other line you have never met who is rating and recording every single utterance. I took the OPI and WPT for both Arabic and French and I could testify that it was a stressful experience even for someone who speaks, reads and write both languages fluently. Which leads me to the issue of some non-native speakers, I must premise by saying that I had the pleasure of working and meeting some wonderful non-native French and Spanish speakers, however, it saddens me to say that there are people in the profession teaching either French or Spanish who have no business doing it. The end result is a poor quality of instruction, students who can not speak the language after years and years of instruction, teachers who resolve to Speaking English in a foreign language class sometimes 80% of the time!!! (How can you learn a language like that?) and a slew of other consequences among which the dissatisfaction of the community with the FL programs in their neighborhood schools. There always this sense that FL in this country are relegated to a sub-standard role. I am not saying that the poor quality of instructors is the only reason for that, but in programs and districts where hiring quality instructors is a priority (there are not many unfortunately) , FL is a big part of the educational system ( Fairfax County, Virginia with its immersion schools comes to mind). I think some university programs and some states dropped the ball by lowering their standards by allowing candidates to get certified even if their ACTFL scores are Advanced-low or Intermediate-Hig or by still requiring the Praxis test ( one of the stupidest tests ever created for FL) to be good enough. How can you teach a language to a high school student when your proficiency score is Intermediate-high and the student’s score is Intermediate- mid?( yes some school have proficiency test for their students that follow the ACTFL guidelines).<br><br>On the other hand, one issue with native speakers or in this case Arabic native speakers if we can call them that is that most of them are oblivious to what it takes to teach a FL language. They look at it from their point of view and through their own experiences when they were learning it as kids in their respective native countries, they bring their cultural luggage and own learning background and try to implement it or make it as their road map of teaching in a completely different culture and different set of circumstances. They do not look at the learning experience form the point of view of the student who may have never heard Arabic, but from their own. They end up teaching the alphabet for example as they would have learned themselves 20 or 30 years ago back home where the teacher centered class is the norm. They don’t realize that something as common for them as Ahmed is incomprehensible to students. The proof here is the slew of ridiculously written books for the learning of Arabic where grammar and grammar and grammar is driving the instruction, nothing is taught in context and rote memorization is the key to success or is it?<br>Someone mention rules and that native speakers don’t know the rules. I wish it was as simple as that. Rules you can read about in a book and just follow the book. The problem with some native speakers is that they follow too many rules. Try teaching a foreign language to a middle schooler and talk incessantly about rules<br>your school year would be a long one.<br><br>Abdelkader Khila<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 28 Jan 2008</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Jonathan Lange <<a href="mailto:jonathanlange@yahoo.com">jonathanlange@yahoo.com</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers and Orange Books</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Hi there, just to put my two cents in on a few<br>subjects running around the list:<br><br>First, does anyone doubt that a foreign speaker can be<br>an excellent teacher of Arabic (or any other language,<br>for that matter)? I'm a plain, old, raised-here<br>American and at university my Arabic teacher for the<br>first two years was Chinese (I believe he is on this<br>list - and bravo professor! :) ). I had a fabulous<br>learning experience. Why? Quite possibly becasue the<br>professor knew very well himself what the difficulties<br>of learning Arabic as a foreigner were. And there's<br>the point - if you had to go through it, you can<br>better explain it.<br><br>Second concern:<br><br>What ever happenned to the good old Orange Book(s)? <br>Everyone is listing recommended Arabic resources for<br>this and that, but this is still the only resource<br>that gives you a straight-forward, no-run-around<br>grammar of Arabic. I know that when I was in CASA<br>there was a big dispute over whether the Orange Book<br>people or the Al-Kitab people were better. Well, the<br>answwer was that the OB folks knew their grammar<br>inside and out, and the AK people spoke better, but<br>both were lacking what the other had. So...when are<br>Arabic professors (you know who you are :) ) going to<br>get together and make a happy medium between the two? <br>I would also suggest a decent workbook, with fun<br>exercises and cultural references (like I learned<br>French) to go along with this. I know Al-Kitab takes<br>a shot at that, but some fine-tuning is in order.<br><br>Anyway, just my two cents on both the<br>foreigner-as-teacher and textbook issues.<br><br>-Jonathan Lange<br></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 28 Jan 2008</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Moulay Ali Bouanani" <<a href="mailto:bouanani.idrissi@gmail.com">bouanani.idrissi@gmail.com</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Limiting jobs to native speakers and Orange Books</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In the best of worlds, yes. However, when it comes to teaching English in<br>this country and others. It is tacitly agreed upon to be a native speaker if<br>one is applying for a position in an English department. I have had to<br>experience discrimination (never overtly) in securing a job compatible with<br>my training as a teacher/professor of English here in the US. I suspect<br>English hiring committees in many institutions of simply discarding<br>applications just by looking at the names of applicants and not paying<br>attention to their credentials. The only position I got teaching English in<br>the US was offered to me because (according to the chair of that particular<br>department) they had more than enough of a particular ethnic group at that<br>school!</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">End of Arabic-L: 28 Jan 2008</div></body></html>