<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Arabic-L: Fri 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Moderator: Dilworth Parkinson <<a href="mailto:dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu">dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To post messages to the list, send them to <a href="mailto:arabic-l@byu.edu">arabic-l@byu.edu</a>]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To unsubscribe, send message from same address you subscribed from to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:listserv@byu.edu">listserv@byu.edu</a> with first line reading:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> unsubscribe arabic-l ]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Directory------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1) Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2) Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3) Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">4) Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">5) Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Messages-----------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Uri Horesh <<a href="mailto:uri.horesh@fandm.edu">uri.horesh@fandm.edu</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">Dear Chris et al.,<br><br>I'd like to thank Chris for his thoughtful questions and thoughts and<br>offer a few remarks:<br><br>1. If anyone "cringes at [your] use of 'rules' in reference to<br>dialect," let them cringe all they want. Dialects - including those of<br>Arabic - are just as systematic as any language. They have<br>regularities and irregularities; stable features and variable ones.<br>And in many cases, especially in phonology but by no means limited to<br>that domain, "conversion" from MSA to a dialect (or a cluster of<br>dialects) is quite predictable.<br><br>2. On that note, Margaret Nydell once publishes a series of conversion<br>courses from MSA to XXX dialect(s). It seems to be out of print, but<br>if you contact Georgetown University's Arabic Department, I'm sure<br>they can locate copies for you.<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Margaret%20K.%20Nydell&page=1">http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Margaret%20K.%20Nydell&page=1</a><br><br>3. The notion of teaching "dialectal forms" without teaching a<br>specific dialect is not a new one. It may seem peculiar to some<br>people, but I think it is useful. It can be done in the form of<br>"Formal Spoken Arabic," as in the series of books by Karin Ryding,<br>David Mehall and others. Or it can be done using any of the existing<br>materials, which are dialect-specific, as long as the instructor isn't<br>bound and doesn't bind her/his students to using one particular<br>dialect in speech. For instance, if a teacher well-versed in Egyptian<br>Arabic is using the materials in Al-Kitaab (or Mughazy's book for that<br>matter), but has a number of students of Lebanese heritage, or even<br>non-heritage students who plan to travel to the Gulf, why not let them<br>interact as Arabs would interact in the real world: each using the<br>dialect with which they are comfortable, with adjustments and<br>accommodations where needed.<br><br>4. Finally, a bunch of us have been meeting, mostly informally thus<br>far, to discuss ways in which Munther Younes's integrated approach to<br>teaching Arabic dialects alongside MSA can be refined and promoted. If<br>you respond to me off-list, I can give you more details.<br><br>Best wishes,<br>Uri<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Brian Huebner <<a href="mailto:bhuebner2@gmail.com">bhuebner2@gmail.com</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><br></div><div>Hello from Belgium,<br><br>Your suggested approach is used very effectively in a school textbook designed for use in the French high school Arabic classes.<br><br>Alongside the MSA texts and dialogues, elements of 4 dialects (Morrocan, Tunisian, Egyptian and Lebanese) are intertwined into the course with explanations of the differences in pronunciation, grammatical rules, morphology and syntax.<br><br>I only have the second volume which I purchased at the Instistut du Monde Arabe in Paris. CD's are also available, but I don't have them.<br><br>It's called:<br>Kullo tamâm (كله تمام)<br>Arabe Tome 2<br><br><a href="http://www.delagrave-edition.fr/Search_Result.cfm?keywords=Kullo+tam%C3%A2m&niveauCategID=&MatiereCategID=&x=0&y=0">http://www.delagrave-edition.fr/Search_Result.cfm?keywords=Kullo+tam%C3%A2m&niveauCategID=&MatiereCategID=&x=0&y=0</a><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br>Hope this helps,<br><br>Brian Huebner<br>conference interpreter<br>Brussels<br><a href="http://www.langsites.com/">www.langsites.com</a><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:<a href="mailto:benjamin.geer@GMAIL.COM">benjamin.geer@GMAIL.COM</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>See this article about Munther Younes:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/10/01/arabic">http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/10/01/arabic</a></div><div><br></div><div>Ben</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">4)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Ola Moshref <<a href="mailto:omoshref@gmail.com">omoshref@gmail.com</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div>salaam</div><div> </div><div>I follow your same strategy. Given the amount of MSA material that our program requires us to cover in each course and the limited number of contact hours, we have little space to go beyond MSA. However, I always include among the course objectives something like "to make correspondences between standard and spoken varieties of Arabic"<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font face="arial narrow,sans-serif">.</font></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "></span> </div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "></span>We use Al-kitaab, so I always do part of the colloquial (listening) at the end of each chapter. Some students find it very hard, and say it is not useful. With interested classes, I give an hour weekly to practice speaking in colloquial as well. I do not have structured instructional material for this purpose, but I make my own based on the students' level. In grammar, whenever applicable I hint to differences between MSA and colloquial. But I believe theoretical explanations of this sort are of little use.</div><div> </div><div>Apart from the textbook, the only material I can supplement is songs or any other listening in colloquial, focusing only on small stretches that are very close to the MSA structures or vocabulary they learned.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Happy new year</div></div><div><br></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">5)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 02 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Debra Smith <<a href="mailto:dlmsmith@sbcglobal.net">dlmsmith@sbcglobal.net</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Response to 'teaching colloquial with MSA'</div><div><br></div><div>My observation as an Arabic student (and English language teacher) is that what's helpful depends on the student. For me, understanding principles and tendencies shared by the colloquials is very helpful. So far, it looks to me like it's the most basic and important things that change: pronouns, verb conjugations, interrogative particles, and key verbs like 'want.' At the same time, I believe that other learners are less principle oriented and more sensitive to auditory input from the language itself. So ultimately both are helpful. I say this from Southern Sudan, where, with a background in MSA and Egyptian colloquial and a smidge of Iraqi, I am trying to wrap my mind around Juba Arabic, which is completely different.<br><br>Debra Smith<br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">End of Arabic-L: 02 Jan 2009</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>