<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Arabic-L: Fri 23 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Moderator: Dilworth Parkinson <<a href="mailto:dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu">dilworth_parkinson@byu.edu</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To post messages to the list, send them to <a href="mailto:arabic-l@byu.edu">arabic-l@byu.edu</a>]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[To unsubscribe, send message from same address you subscribed from to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:listserv@byu.edu">listserv@byu.edu</a> with first line reading:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> unsubscribe arabic-l ]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Directory------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1) Subject:Teaching Colloquial with MSA</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2) Subject:Teaching Colloquial with MSA</div><div><br></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-------------------------Messages-----------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 23 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Doria El Kerdany <<a href="mailto:doriayk@aucegypt.edu">doriayk@aucegypt.edu</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Teaching Colloquial with MSA</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">Wahid, <br>that was very interesting answer, shokran.<br>do you have in mind a name of a source where we can find a list of non-فصحى features (Egyptian dialect)?<br>best,<br>doria El kerdany<br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Date: 23 Jan 2009</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:Dina El Zarka <<a href="mailto:dina.elzarka@uni-graz.at">dina.elzarka@uni-graz.at</a>></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject:Teaching Colloquial with MSA</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p>we've been discussing this issue for a while now and it seems that it will be long before any agreement can be <span> </span>reached. Maybe solutions will have to be tailored to particular needs, anyway. As far as teaching at my department is concerned, we have to get students to a quite high level of proficiency in MSA very soon because we are training translators. So we cannot afford to spend one whole semester on teaching a colloquial language which we then could use as a metalanguage for teaching. Also not all of our teachers would be able to do that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p>In the past I started with MSA and also spoke only MSA in class. In the third year we began teaching Egyptian Arabic using Manfred Woidichs's materials. While students did very well in class and enjoyed it, they never seemed to use it outside class or afterwards. I thus turned to some kind of "formal spoken Arabic" along the guidelines of Ryding and Zaiback's book with the same title to make them actually use the language, teaching the "rules of change" and the typical colloquial features first. But as an input I used different purely colloquial materials including Egyptian and Shami variants. Students performed better in expressing themselves than in the years before when they were encouraged to use one dialect, i.e. Egyptian Arabic. I guess the reason is that they felt they could also use fusha whenever they did not know the right term or construction in ammiyya.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p>But the main problem is not solved with this method. It is evident that exposure to spoken language has to be from the very beginning. So I am experimenting at the moment with some kind of formal spoken Arabic as a metalanguage which I use from the first semester on together with German. At home I speak some funny mixture of Egyptian and Iraqi Arabic and we for example avoid ayiz, ayza AND yiriid when we wish to express "want" and have tacitly agreed on biddi. There are many more examples, and I found that many of the spontaneous adaptations (like from my side leaving out the -sh of the negation) can be found in Ryding and Zaiback's book. I also went back to consistently doing the ammiyya parts of Al-Kitaab which we use for teaching.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p>The drawbacks are evident, students might be confused and will not use a coherent local dialect as long as they don't go to an Arab country and learn it. I have no idea where this will get us. This strategy stems from desperation rather than being based on theoretical or empirical grounds.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span><br>Dina El Zarka</p><p class="MsoNormal">Graz, Austria</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">End of Arabic-L: 23 Jan 2009</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>