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Dear Guillaume,<br>
<br>
I have one question and one comment. <br>
<br>
I would be interested to know why exactly you believe that the
prefixing character or Athabaskan is counter to expectations, given
the V-final word order. I have some guesses why you say that, but
please clarify. For example, Indo-Europeanists apply special efforts
to explain why IE has suffixal personal inflection, going back to
subject pronouns, in spite of the SV order in the known IE
languages.<br>
<br>
Also, modern Athabaskan have variable verb stem finals that is
mostly reconstructed as going back to suffixes and, actually, series
of suffixes. Most of the Athabaskan prefixes are relatively recent,
and there is a reconstructable stage at which prefixes (conjunct)
were combined with a number of suffixes. <br>
<br>
Best --<br>
<br>
Andrej Kibrik<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">15.09.2013 23:49, Guillaume Jacques
пишет:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAzt3zYYF0=gLKzDVvdGH1R5O=UvU4eKtogq261Lam3Qnfw6Dg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Beste Willem,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your message!</div>
<div>Siouan languages are indeed verb final and have verb
template that allow several prefixal slots. However, my
statement was not specific enough, and did not clearly convey
my meaning. In terms of the proportion of prefixes vs.
suffixes, Siouan languages differ from Athabaskan and
Rgyalrong, as they also have many suffixal slots; for instance
the negation -<i>šni</i>, the irrealis -<i>kte </i>etc, and
Rood and Taylor in their sketch of Lakhota list more than ten
suffixal slots.</div>
<div>Of course, there are "sentence final particles" in
Athabascan and Rgyalrong too (for instance the negation <i>da
</i>in Navajo). However, in Siouan, there are morphological
reasons to argue that the suffixal elements are indeed
suffixes (the -a / -e / -ĩ vowel alternation for instance),
whereas I am not sure whether the same could be argued of the
sentence final particles in Athabaskan (feedback from
specialists would be welcome).</div>
<div>In any case, in any typological survey of OV+prefixing
languages, I fully agree with you that Siouan languages have
to be included.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Guillaume</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/9/15 De Reuse, Willem <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:WillemDeReuse@my.unt.edu" target="_blank">WillemDeReuse@my.unt.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div
style="direction:ltr;font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">Dear
Guillaume, bonjour!<br>
<br>
Thank you for sharing this. I will definitely send you
comments. One comment on your statement that "there are
very few strict OV languages with mainly prefixing
verbal templates (as far as I know only Na-Dene,
Ienissean and Rgyalrong)". I can think of one other
language family, Siouan, which would also conform to
this description. So you might want to write to the
Siouanist language discussion group as well. They are a
pretty lively bunch.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Willem de Reuse<br>
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Times New Roman">
<hr>
<div style="direction:ltr"><font face="Tahoma"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> ATHAPBASCKAN-L [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ATHAPBASCKAN-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
target="_blank">ATHAPBASCKAN-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>]
on behalf of Guillaume Jacques [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@GMAIL.COM"
target="_blank">rgyalrongskad@GMAIL.COM</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 15, 2013 6:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ATHAPBASCKAN-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
target="_blank">ATHAPBASCKAN-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> prefixing verbal template and OV<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Athabaskanists, yaě'aět'eěeěh !
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="im">I have just published an article
(in Linguistic Typology) on the issue of
disharmony between affix ordering and basic
word order. Here is an offprint:<br
clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.academia.edu/2008163/Harmonization_and_disharmonization_of_affix_ordering_and_basic_word_order"
target="_blank">http://www.academia.edu/2008163/Harmonization_and_disharmonization_of_affix_ordering_and_basic_word_order</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The article mainly discusses the verbal
template of Japhug Rgyalrong, a
polysynthetic Sino-Tibetan language spoken
in Eastern Tibet (which, like Athabaskan
languages, has strict verb final order with
overwhelmingly prefixing verbal morphology)
in a historical perspective (how particular
morphemes were grammaticalized as prefixes
rather than suffixes, despites the fact that
the basic corresponding construction should
have led to the grammaticalization as
suffixes).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did not really discuss Athabaskan in
detail due to my insufficient knowledge of
this field. However, I think that
typologically similar phenomena are probably
attested in Athabaskan.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>I would be much interested to have feedback
from Athabaskanists on this particular topic
(in particular, concerning the idea proposed
by Givoěn 2000 on the origin of some prefixes
in Tolowa); there are very few strict OV
languages with mainly prefixing verbal
templates (as far as I know only Na-Dene,
Ienissean and Rgyalrong), and typological
comparison of the morphosyntax of these
languages could be interesting, but it is not
a one-man project.</div>
<div class="im">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes to all of you,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Guillaume Jacques <br>
<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
-- <br>
Guillaume Jacques<br>
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques"
target="_blank">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a><br>
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href="http://himalco.hypotheses.org/"
target="_blank">http://himalco.hypotheses.org/</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/"
target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Guillaume Jacques<br>
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques"
target="_blank">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a><br>
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href="http://himalco.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://himalco.hypotheses.org/</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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