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<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Dear all,</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>That is right for Breton -
there is neither a vocative particle nor lenition.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>In recherché literary texts, a
particle "a" plus lenition has occasionally been used:</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>A Zoue! "O God!"</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>but I am fairly certain that
this has been done by erudite learners in imitation of Welsh (O Dduw!), and has
absolutely no basis in any historical form of </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>-----Original
Message-----</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>From: The Celtic Linguistics
List</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>[mailto:CELTLING@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Michael
Daniel</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Sent: jeu. 10 mai 2007
16:01</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>To:
CELTLING@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Subject: query: vocatives in
modern Celtic languages</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Dear all,</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>I am collecting data on
vocative forms and forms of address, </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>cross-linguistically, and am
especially interested in languages that </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>have special vocative
morphology, or at least a vocative form that is </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>distinct from the nominative.
Starting from occasional references </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>indicating the existence of the
vocative in modern Celtic languages, I </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>looked up a few sources. Being
no Celtologist at all, I now seem to have </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>a vague idea of the general
picture now, but different sources are not </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>always specific about all
relevant points, so I would be very much </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>grateful if you could correct
me and update the gaps.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>There is however quite a bunch
of data mentioned and questions asked – </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>takes some time to read this
email, let alone to answer it. And also – </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>you know how it happens, once
you start answering one question…</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Still, I am very much looking
forward to all eventual answers!</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Michael Daniel
(Moscow)</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>My general understanding of the
Modern Celtic vocatives.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Some Modern Celtic languages
seem to have a vocative construction / </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>morphology. The construction is
particle "/a"/ triggering initial </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>lenition of the following noun,
or, alternatively, initial lenition </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>only, with no particle,
depending on the language. There are claims that </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>vocative morphology (initial
lenition) in the absence of the particle </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>indicates that the particle has
been lost (Ball&Fife 1993: 13), leaving </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>lenition as a trace.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Specific languages.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Irish seems to have the
"a"-particle-construction with lenition (e.g. </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Siadhail 1989: 149). Ibidem,
page 149 he provides a special "vocative" </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>form, which is not only
lenited, but has a distinct flexion (‘man’ SgVoc </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>/feara/ as opposed to SgNm
/fear/; PlVoc/ feara/ as opposed to PlNom </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>/fir/). I gather these forms
are also only used after the particle a </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>(although there is no direct
indications at that). Very similar </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>observations are made of
Scottish Gaelig (Ball&Fife eds.: 1993: 173).</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Welsh (King 1993, Ball&Fife
eds. 1993) has a vocative lenition without </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>the vocative particle. So does
Manx (Ball&Fife eds 1993: 237). However, </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>(Broderick 1984: 27) indicates
that in what he calls ‘Late Spoken Manx’ </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>only isolate vocative forms
were used, he counts three nouns with </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>attested vocatives in the
singular and two in the plural. Some of them </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>are exclamations (vuddee ‘O
poor wench) rather than actual addresses.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Breton (Press 1986) does not
seem to preserve any vocative lenition, </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>whether triggered by a
particle, as in Irish, or independent, as in Welsh.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>My general questions are the
following.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>1. First of all, is all the
data as interpreted by me and presented </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>above correct?</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>2. Do I understand correctly,
that in the languages that have a vocative </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>particle the initial lenition
of the following noun is not purely </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>phonetic / phonological, but
morphophonological (i.e. that it is the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>presence of the particle
triggers it, not e.g. any element preposed to </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>the noun and ending in a
vowel).</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>3. May the vocative particle
"a" in these languages be used </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>independently (the way "hey" in
English is, which can be used both </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>independently and with a noun).
>From the descriptions I understand it </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>can not, is that
true?</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>4. Do the languages indeed fall
into several clearcut groups – Manx & </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Welsh have no particle but have
vocative lenition – Irish and Scottish </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Gaelig have lenition after the
vocative particle – Breton has none. Or </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>these are trends rather than
rules (e.g. Welsh might occasionally use </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>the particle, while Irish may
sometimes drop preserving the lenition). </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Also, are flectionally distinct
vocatives in Irish and Welsh _only_ used </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>with the vocative particle?
>From the descriptions I understand the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>groups are clearcut – is that
true?</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>5. Is the presence of a
vocative morphologically distinct from the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>nominative (including e.g.
Welsh where there is no particle and the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>lenition is to be considered as
a grammatical marking) only </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>characteristic of common nouns
like ‘boy’, ‘child’, ‘god’ etc., as the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>examples seem to indicate, or
are given names or family names also </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>included into vocative
morphology. (Mind that the example like /a </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Mha/ire/ in Siadhail 1989 is
not distinct from the nominative, as far as </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>I can understand, except for
the lenition triggered by the presence of </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>the vocative particle. I would
be more interested in given names </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>belonging to the ‘vocative’
declension type in Irish/Scottish Gaelig or </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>proper names that lenite in
Welsh / Manx). (King 1993: 19) notes for </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>instance, that personal names
in Modern Welsh are not subject to </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>mutation – does that mean that
forms of address with given names are </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>always identical to the
nominative in Welsh (and do they use any </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>vocative particle then)? On the
other hand, Scottish Gaelig names </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>"Seumas" and "Donnchadh" belong
to the relevant ‘A1’ declension type </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>(Ball&Fife eds 1993: 173),
so they are supposed to have distinct </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>vocative forms, though no
examples are provided. In general, is that not </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>that the Celtic vocative, where
available, tends to combine with common </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>names rather than proper names
such as given names? And what about </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>kinship terms (especially
‘mother’, ‘father’)? Does it not tend to drift </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>into exclamations ("Oh boy!",
"Good lord!") from the pure vocative address?</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>6. Do I understand correctly
that the /a /is possible in Irish and </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Scottish Gaelig not only with
‘1A’ declension type nouns (that have a </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>distinct vocative form), but
also with other nouns used as address. What </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>are the semantic constraints on
the combinability with /a /in different </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>languages – only animates? Only
humans?</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>7. How does the suggestion that
the vocative lenition without the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>vocative particle is a trace of
the vocative particle now lost combines </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>with the fact that in a Manx
example (Ball&Fife eds. 1993: 237) both the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>adjective and the head noun
lenite? (If /a /is a true particle, it is </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>very unlikely to repeat twice
in one NP).</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>9. Finally, I am somewhat
puzzled by a small note on Welsh (I understand </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>it treats classic Welsh).
(Jones 1930: 451) writes that "Some </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>interjections are followed by
nouns <…> Also, of course, by the </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>vocative: /Och Dduw/. I wonder
what he means here by ‘the vocative’. Is </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>it a special vocative
morphology? I was unable to find any mentioning of </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>the vocatives in his grammar –
what he does is that he explicitly </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>indicates there are no case
left in Welsh nouns.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>For those of you who had
patience to go through to the end of this </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>letter – thank you, whether you
think it is worthwhile correcting my </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>mistakes and
mis-interpretations or not.</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>