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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=SR link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Brian and colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It seems I was not clear in my letter. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This kind of order is necessary when applying General Linerar Model Repeated Measures since same measures are within-subjects repeated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is actualy general and typical model of ordering data for any within-subject factors design (like large quantity of data from psychological tests where one participant has data for different items-measures from test and retest, etc...).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am aware of MORTABLE output. It is the same in ordering data as output of FREQ and MLU, and I find it realy usefull.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But if one wants to compare the same measure (like morphems/utterances) for the same child from different age levels (repeated measures), then this order is required for statistical reasons.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I send to Brian one of my output files as an example. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The first sheet contains the table generated by CLAN MLU. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The second sheet (named Target) has data that I sorted manualy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I had to change the cells in column A in order to make clear that data are coming from a set of files (different ages) for the same child.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And I added one row above all in order to make clear that columns contain the same data (measure) coming from different age levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I know nothing about MEASURES and EVAL and I dont find any information of it on the site, nor in the Manual (I use the last version).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I hope the file that I made will make it more clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best wishes and thanks for your concern,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Darinka <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> chibolts@googlegroups.com [mailto:chibolts@googlegroups.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian MacWhinney<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 05, 2012 6:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> chibolts@googlegroups.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Repeated Measures data in spreadsheets<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Darinka,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> This format of subjects in rows and scores in columns is what we are now using for the MEASURES, MORTABLE, and EVAL programs that output Excel-type tables. However, if you are creating various custom measures through special purpose runs on data, it is difficult for me to see how CLAN can guess the format of what you are creating. Maybe you are saying that you are creating a collection of separate files for each subject and then trying to cut and paste data from these separate files into a single file. But, in that case, maybe you should have run your command on *.cha using *CHI as the consistent identifier for your target child rather than "Peter" "Mary" and "John". <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In any case, some of this can be done with what we already have and some cannot. It all depends on the details of how your data is coded, how subjects appear across files, and so on. In the end, sometimes it may just be necessary to resort to cut and paste. However, if there is some consistent and typical method that we can implement, we would try. But we would need to have it very closely described. Take a look at MEASURES, MORTABLE, and EVAL to get some sense of how this might work.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-- Brian MacWhinney<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On May 5, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Darinka Andjelkovic wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dear colleagues,</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I have tried the command that Leonid<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>recently<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>made for<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Joyce Marzan for the purpose of rotating CLAN spreadsheet output on its side, turning columns into row and vice versa:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>spreadsheet stat.frq.xls<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>and it works perfectly.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>But my question is about possibility to use this device for the preparation of data file for further statistical analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>In most studies of language development one would look for one or more measures (let’s say number of utterances or morphemes) at different age samples for the same child.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>And, for the statistical reasons we have to treat this as a Repeated Measures design for different age levels. So, working for example in SPSS, we have to sort age samples into different columns like all other variables (utterances, morphemes, etc.), while participants should be sorted in rows like this:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> utter18m utter19m utter20m morph18m morph19m morphs20m<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Mary<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I do not see any other way of preparation of Excel data into that kind of sort, except for manual cutting rows and pasting them into collumns by means of PasteSpecial/Transpose.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It is rather slow, and very susseptable for making errors, especialy for a large quantity of data.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>How do you handle this?</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Maybe a Macro would work, but I do not know how to make it. Is there any available around, that I could use?</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Any suggestion would be most appreciated.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Best wishes,</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Darinka Andjelkovic</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>--<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "chibolts" group.<br>To post to this group, send email to<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:chibolts@googlegroups.com">chibolts@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:chibolts+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">chibolts+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options, visit this group at<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://groups.google.com/group/chibolts?hl=en">http://groups.google.com/group/chibolts?hl=en</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "chibolts" group.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a href="mailto:chibolts@googlegroups.com">chibolts@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href="mailto:chibolts+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">chibolts+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options, visit this group at <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/chibolts?hl=en">http://groups.google.com/group/chibolts?hl=en</a>.<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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