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<TITLE>RE: tlingit and/or chinuk wawa Sakwnein</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Last week (19 APR 03), Tlingit Elder Agnes Bellinger was telling me that sakwnein in Tlingit originally referred to the dried, processed and cooked roots from koox, a.k.a. chocolate lily, indian rice, kamchatka lily.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Roy Iutzi-Mitchell</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Dave Robertson [<A HREF="mailto:TuktiWawa@NETSCAPE.NET">mailto:TuktiWawa@NETSCAPE.NET</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 1:18 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: CHINOOK@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [TLINGIT_LANGUAGE-L] Tlingit alphabet names</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>LhaXayam,</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>John, though I don't know Lingit, the word you mention below looks likely to be borrowed from Chinook Jargon /saplil/. Lingit presumably would substitute the unpronounceable /p/ with a "kw", and unpronounceable /l/ with "n".</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Many Native languages borrowed this same word, for example Coast Salish languages of Washington. The origin of the word hasn't been pinned down, but it's apparently from the lower Columbia River region, rather than from Lingit.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>So it may be just a coincidence that "sakwnein" looks like it contains the Lingit "sakw".</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>As for the original meaning of the word, a funny thing is that this also hasn't been determined. Scholars of Chinook Jargon debate whether the word first referred to flour or to bread, or to a root harvested by Native people; what's clear from the earliest records is that if you wanted to be very clear that you meant bread (not flour) in Chinook Jargon, you could say /paya saplil/...that's literally "cooked saplil"...the exact same description found in Lingit!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Hope these notes are of some use.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Lhush-san,</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>--Dave R.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>John Palmes <johnpalmes@GCI.NET> wrote:</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>>Another example is a word I just figured out because Jeff Leer gave us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>the word sakw.... sakw means something like the ingredients for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>something, or something that will become something else after some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>process. I probably won't be gramatically correct,,, but Axh hit sakw...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>might be a pile of building materials for my future house.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>So sakwnein is the word for flour. Bread is sakwnein eewu.... "cooked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>bread" is the translation in the dictionary. These days people</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>(including teachers) have gotten sloppy and tell you that sakwnein is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>the word for bread. The meaning of the word has been lost because of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>tranlation.. and it is lost to speakers as well as students because</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>almost nobody "thinks" about these things the way you say we do.</FONT>
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