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<TITLE>RE: Tsimshian <==> Chinookan (fwd from D. Hymes)</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>I think that would be Marie-Lucie Tarpent.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: David D. Robertson [<A HREF="mailto:ddr11@COLUMBIA.EDU">mailto:ddr11@COLUMBIA.EDU</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 3:04 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: CHINOOK@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: Tsimshian <==> Chinookan (fwd from D. Hymes)</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: Tsimshian <==> Chinookan (fwd from C. Bruce/C. Roth)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:01 EST</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> From: Dell Hymes <dhymes@adelphia.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> To: "David D. Robertson" <ddr11@columbia.edu></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> « Previous | Next »</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>A few years ago a linguist in Canada investigated the relationship of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Tsimshian</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>and Chinookan, expecting to show that there was no merit to the claim.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>She later told me that to her surprise she find merit indeed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I'm sorry that I can't bring her name forward at the moment.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>She is a member of the faculty of one of the colleges in eastern Canada</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>If some one has an address for Daythal Kendall, who wrote a dissertation on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Takelma, but is not now at a university, he would be able to connect</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>someone with her.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>>Subject: Re: Simalgyax</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 7:35 EST</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: cbruce@smartline.com.au</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: "David D. Robertson" <ddr11@columbia.edu></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> « Previous | Next »</FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Just a bit more on my Simalgyax question. Dr. Roth of the Tsimshian list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>had a similar take some of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>the comments on the chinook list. I just thought I'd forward them on as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>they contain extra detail.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Christopher Roth <cfroth@EARTHLINK.NET>@LIST.UNM.EDU> on 12-05-2003</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>19:59:55</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Please respond to Tsimshian language discussion list <TSIMSHIAN_LANGUAGE-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>L@LIST.UNM.EDU></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Sent by: Tsimshian language discussion list <TSIMSHIAN_LANGUAGE-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>L@LIST.UNM.EDU></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>As for the idea that Tsimshian and Chinookan are related -- presumably the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>old idea that Tsimshian is Penutian -- I'm not skeptical so much because</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>I've really pursued the question but because I am generally wary of ancient</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>genetic relationships postulated on the basis of vocabulary items in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>contemporary languages. This is the trap that Joseph Greenberg fell into</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>"Languages of the Americas." What is needed instead is the careful</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>reconstruction of proto-languages of established families such as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sahaptian,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Tsimshianic, etc. Edward Sapir long ago suggested Tsimshian might be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Penutian, and that assumption was later undermined, but Marie-Lucie</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Tarpent,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>who works on Nisga'a and Southern Tsimshian, has lately come around to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>agreeing with Sapir again. Meanwhile, Michael Silverstein, who has worked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>on Chinookan for some decades now, feels that Sapir's intuition was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>incorrect (this is what he told me last time we discussed it) and that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>similarities between Tsimshianic and Chinookan were due to similarities</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>arise wherever there is split ergativity, which both languages have. So,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>it's a hot debate, but, wherever you come down on it, we should not be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>comparing Chinookan and Tsimshian -- let alone Tsimshian and Chinook</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Jargon!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>-- but instead should be comparing proto-Tsimshianic to proto-Chinookan,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>proto-Sahaptian, proto-Penutian, etc. That is a long painstaking process</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>and one which has not been undertaken completely. I believe that Tarpent's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>work on this is mostly not published, but I do refer anyone to her article</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>"Tsimshianic and Penutian: Problems, Methods, Results, and Implications,"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>International Journal of American Linguistics 63(1) (1997):65-112.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>CJ is one of the worst ways to get at Chinookan proper, since CJ's lexical</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>sources are so diffuse and since Chinookan itself has been so well</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>documented by Jacobs, Boas, Sapir, French, Silverstein, Hymes, et al. It's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>one of the best documented near-extinct languages.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>As for the mama/papa universals, the funny thing about them is they're so</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>widespread that common genetic origin can't be what's going on. Darned if</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>DO know what's going on, though. I refer people to Roman Jakobson, "Why</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>'Mama' and 'Papa'?," in Perspectives in Psychological Theory, ed. by B.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Kaplan and S. Wapner (1960), N.Y., International Universities Press. Also:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Edmund Leach, "More about 'Mama' and 'Papa'," in Rethinking Kinship and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Marriage, ed. by Rodney Needham (1971), London, Tavistock.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Hope that helps. Feel free to copy this into the CJ list if there's a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>debate there on this.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Chris Roth</FONT>
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