I think Bob is referring to societal bilingualism (not individual). <br>I believe there were many monolingual German speakers in the U.S. prior to WWI (not just in Missouri, but also in Pennsylvania and other states).<br>
The point is that ideas can be translated into any language. It is common ways of thinking that unit people, not a common language.<br>In a multilingual society, as long as there are several bilingual individuals (not necessarily in the same languages), translation and civic engagement can occur. I believe it is more important for people to be literate in at least one language than it is to mandate what language that should be.<br>
In the U.S., basic literacy and numeracy (in any language) are more real problems than "whose language".<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Hartmut Haberland <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">As much as I sympathize with the point that Bob makes, I'd like to point out that he talks about bilingualism, so there was a shared language. I wonder how many of the Missouri German speakers were monolingual at any time.<br>
I am not trying to argue that one shared language is a necessary condition for a civic identity. It is certainly not a sufficient condition. Didn't somebody once point out that Northern Ireland, Rwanda and Somalia are among the most homogeneous areas in the world language-wise?<br>
<br>
Hartmut Haberland<br>
Professor, German language and sociolinguistics of globalization<br>
Roskilde University, Denmark<br>
________________________________________<br>
Fra: <a href="mailto:edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a> [<a href="mailto:edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a>] på vegne af <a href="mailto:kaboyates@charter.net">kaboyates@charter.net</a> [<a href="mailto:kaboyates@charter.net">kaboyates@charter.net</a>]<br>
Sendt: 7. februar 2013 20:05<br>
Til: The Educational Linguistics List<br>
Emne: Re: [Edling] Political Economy of Culture: Where Should President Obama Start: By Designing a Consistent language policy or on Imposing English Language as a Requirement to the Path of U.S. Citizenship?<br>
<br>
Colleagues,<br>
<br>
If you reflect on American history, Christian Faltis's point that "a<br>
national language unifies" is a debatable point is clearly supported.<br>
Of course, English did not prevent the Civil War. And, at the time of<br>
the greatest crisis in American history, entire regiments, brigades,<br>
divisions, and almost an entire corps spoke another language: German.<br>
They did not fight to PRESERVE the Union because English was unifying<br>
factor.<br>
<br>
In Missouri, the German speakers were crucial in keeping it in the<br>
Union. After the Civil War, besides cities like Milwaukee and<br>
Cincinnati (and at times St. Louis), there were communities in rural<br>
parts of Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Missouri (and I'm sure other<br>
states in the Midwest) that had public bilingual schools. (I have<br>
visited cemeteries in rural Missouri around Lutheran and Catholic<br>
Churches where almost all the headstones from the 1870s to the early<br>
1920s are all in German.) I don't think those people were consider<br>
unAmerican until the outbreak of WW I. Of course, when the US entered<br>
the Great War, that bilingualism ended almost overnight.<br>
<br>
There are some areas where I live in Missouri that try to celebrate<br>
their bilingual past. There is a theater that puts on plays in a dialect<br>
of German and a community that has people tell stories in German about<br>
what it was like in that community during the Civil War. Hermann,<br>
Missouri is a tourist destination that celebrates its German past some<br>
of the people will talk about the historic buildings in German.<br>
<br>
I often wonder if the ending of German-English bilingualism had not<br>
happened and there were still some areas in the Midwest (beside some<br>
small Amish and Mennonite communities) that still had bilingual programs<br>
would we be so concerned about Spanish-bilingualism today.<br>
<br>
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Christian Faltis wrote:<br>
<br>
> I have to agree completely with Tom on this. Once you start with the<br>
> proposition that minority group doesn't want to learn the national<br>
> language, the assumption is that a national language unifies, and<br>
> there is much debate about that. Studying the history of the treatment<br>
> of indigenous and other minoritized groups in the US will show that<br>
> that the dominant groups will promote policies and practices that<br>
> ensure their dominance. One strategy is to espouse the belief that<br>
> certain minoritized groups don't want do belong, hence placing the<br>
> blame on them.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Chris Faltis<br>
> Professor, language, literacy, and culture<br>
> University of California, Davis<br>
> Sent from my iPad<br>
><br>
> On Feb 6, 2013, at 9:16 AM, Thomas Ricento <<a href="mailto:tricento@ucalgary.ca">tricento@ucalgary.ca</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> HI MYRNA,<br>
>><br>
>> Here are your exact words in your e mail:<br>
>><br>
>> "Fact is, historically, Hispanics are the only ethnic group<br>
>> immigrating to the U.S. that has resisted learning English. I'm not<br>
>> sure why this is so, but it might be a good basis for some research<br>
>> if<br>
>> it has not already been done or if it is not already in the works."<br>
>><br>
>> Your statement is categorical, whatever your intentions might have<br>
>> been, and it is contradicted by evidence (if that matters).<br>
>><br>
>> There is a TON of research on this topic; there ARE government<br>
>> programs providing ESL classes for immigrants in the US (but not<br>
>> nearly enough); this IS a political history with a deep and<br>
>> contentious history in the US, which I and many others have spent<br>
>> many years studying and writing about. If you are interested in<br>
>> learning more, then there is a wealth of literature to read. My<br>
>> comment about Huntington and anti-immigrant zealots was not directed<br>
>> to you personally; rather, it was describing a political reality in<br>
>> the U.S. If you look at the latest poll numbers on how Obama is<br>
>> graded on his position re. a path for citizenship for undocumented<br>
>> Americans (mostly Latinos), Republican (white) conservative males are<br>
>> the only group strongly opposed to his position on immigration<br>
>> reform.<br>
>><br>
>> Tom<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ________________________________________<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a><br>
>> [<a href="mailto:edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a>] On Behalf Of Myrna Goldstein<br>
>> [<a href="mailto:myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com">myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com</a>]<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 8:18 AM<br>
>> To: The Educational Linguistics List<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Edling] Political Economy of Culture: Where Should<br>
>> President Obama Start: By Designing a Consistent language<br>
>> policy or on Imposing English Language as a Requirement to the<br>
>> Path of U.S. Citizenship?<br>
>><br>
>> HI TOM,<br>
>><br>
>> You quoted me wrong.<br>
>> And distorted what I wrote creating a fictitious context.<br>
>><br>
>> I believe that stereotyping is so very negative and have<br>
>> never done so in my life.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Myrna<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL<br>
>> Founder, Director<br>
>> Are You in Your English File?®<br>
>> Second Language Learning Research Center<br>
>> Eilat, Israel (formerly Milan, Italy)<br>
>><br>
>> Member:<br>
>> TESOL<br>
>> Linguistic Society of America<br>
>> American Association for Applied Linguistics<br>
>><br>
>> e: <a href="mailto:myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com">myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com</a><br>
>> Skype: myinmi<br>
>> c: <a href="tel:%2B%2B972%20053%20525%205360" value="+972535255360">++972 053 525 5360</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Feb 4, 2013, at 11:37 PM, Thomas Ricento wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hello,<br>
>><br>
>> Here is a brief snipet from a chapter I wrote to appear in R.<br>
>> Bayley, et al. (editors), The Oxford Handbook of Sociolinguistics<br>
>> (2013, p. 540):<br>
>><br>
>> "Rumbaut, et al. (2006: 458), relying on data from two published<br>
>> studies and a<br>
>> survey they conducted themselves in Southern California during 2001–<br>
>> 2004,<br>
>> conclude that “under current conditions . . . the ability to speak<br>
>> Spanish very<br>
>> well can be expected to disappear sometime between the second and<br>
>> third<br>
>> generation for all Latin American groups in Southern California.”<br>
>> They<br>
>> also<br>
>> found that “the average Asian language can be expected to die out at<br>
>> or near<br>
>> the second generation” (ibid). To account for such a wide discrepancy<br>
>> between<br>
>> the apparent facts and widely held misperceptions, it is necessary to<br>
>> consider<br>
>> the influence, and effects, of deeply held beliefs about language and<br>
>> identity<br>
>> that are resistant to contrary evidence".<br>
>><br>
>> It is amazing that someone who has expertise in English language<br>
>> teaching also succumbs to the stereotype that 'Latinos refuse to<br>
>> learn<br>
>> English'. This<br>
>> has been the battle cry of Huntington and others (mostly right wing,<br>
>> anti-immigrant advocates) who categorize Latinos as refuseniks. It's<br>
>> just not true. Maintaining Spanish (an American Language) alongside<br>
>> English should be viewed as a positive outcome, even though, as<br>
>> Rumbaut and his colleagues demonstrate, Spanish is being lost. If<br>
>> 'experts' make such claims as Myrna does, it shows that we as applied<br>
>> linguists have a long way to go to educate the broader public.<br>
>><br>
>> Tom Ricento<br>
>> Professor and Chair, English as an Additional Language<br>
>> Faculty of Education<br>
>> University of Calgary<br>
>> ________________________________________<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">edling-bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a> [edling-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se">bounces@bunner.geol.lu.se</a>] On Behalf Of Myrna Goldstein<br>
>> [<a href="mailto:myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com">myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com</a><br>
>> ]<br>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 3:21 AM<br>
>> To: The Educational Linguistics List<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Edling] Political Economy of Culture: Where Should<br>
>> President Obama Start: By Designing a Consistent language policy<br>
>> or on Imposing English Language as a Requirement to the Path<br>
>> of U.S. Citizenship?<br>
>><br>
>> Dear David,<br>
>><br>
>> I read your piece with interest, trying to understand the<br>
>> rationale behind it, beyond the numbers of the Hispanic<br>
>> population. Fact is, historically, Hispanics are the only ethnic<br>
>> group<br>
>> immigrating to the U.S. that has resisted learning English. I'm not<br>
>> sure why this is so, but it might be a good basis for some research<br>
>> if<br>
>> it has not already been done or if it is not already in the works.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not judging. I'm curious. In order to get decent jobs, immigrants<br>
>> to any country in the world realize that they must learn the L1. If<br>
>> they<br>
>> don't, they will always remain in low-level jobs, be isolated from<br>
>> society<br>
>> at large, and will not be able to study at universities to let their<br>
>> talents bloom.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not sure that legislation is the answer; this would have to be<br>
>> studied.<br>
>> But common sense is. So rather than compelling people from above<br>
>> (government)<br>
>> to learn English, it would seem more logical that people themselves<br>
>> would<br>
>> want to learn the nation's common language if those people have a<br>
>> vision of a<br>
>> better life that they feel they can achieve. I believe this has<br>
>> always<br>
>> been the<br>
>> basis of every group's immigration everywhere in the world.<br>
>><br>
>> Perhaps after the U.S. gets its fiscal house in order, it could<br>
>> finance<br>
>> an immigration program that includes ESL courses, thus giving people<br>
>> the option<br>
>> to attend or not to attend. That way, people who do not want to learn<br>
>> the nation's<br>
>> L1 would not be compelled to, but people who do, would have free<br>
>> lessons, say,<br>
>> to get themselves to a B1 (intermediate) level (Common European<br>
>> Frameworks). People<br>
>> who would like to get to an advanced level could do so either through<br>
>> self-study or<br>
>> through community language programs.<br>
>><br>
>> Let us not forget that non-native speakers must take various<br>
>> standardized tests to<br>
>> be admitted to many universities and colleges. I'm not sure if<br>
>> community colleges<br>
>> require TOEFL, GMAT, SAT etc. So, the fact remains, David, that<br>
>> English is the nation's<br>
>> L1 and the future of every immigrant who wants to better his life and<br>
>> the life of his<br>
>> children resides in learning that L1.<br>
>><br>
>> Linguistically yours,<br>
>><br>
>> Myrna<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Myrna Goldstein, B.S.J., MATESL<br>
>> Founder, Director<br>
>> Are You in Your English File?®<br>
>> Second Language Learning Research Center<br>
>> Eilat, Israel (formerly Milan, Italy)<br>
>><br>
>> Member:<br>
>> TESOL<br>
>> Linguistic Society of America<br>
>> American Association for Applied Linguistics<br>
>><br>
>> e: <a href="mailto:myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com">myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com">myrnaenglishfile@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Skype: myinmi<br>
>> c: <a href="tel:%2B%2B972%20053%20525%205360" value="+972535255360">++972 053 525 5360</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Feb 3, 2013, at 2:35 AM, David Balosa wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Political Economy of Culture: Where Should President Obama Start: By<br>
>> Designing a Consistent National Language Policy or by Requiring<br>
>> illegal Immigrant to Learn English as a Path to the United States<br>
>> Citizenship?<br>
>> By<br>
>> David Balosa<br>
>> University of Maryland<br>
>> Baltimore County, (UMBC)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Spanish is currently spoken as a first language by<br>
>> approximately twenty-two million people<br>
>> in the United States. The Hispanics are currently America's<br>
>> fastest growing ethnic<br>
>> community and their numbers are set to rise to 96.5 million<br>
>> by 2050. This is not without<br>
>> problems as the United States does not have legislation which<br>
>> states that English is the<br>
>> official language of the Union; it has always relied on the<br>
>> desire of immigrants for social<br>
>> assimilation and mobility to consolidate the pre-eminence of<br>
>> English.<br>
>><br>
>> (Miranda<br>
>> Stewart, 1999: 6-7)<br>
>><br>
>> In his address regarding "Fixing broken immigration system" entitled<br>
>> "Vision for winning the future" President Obama mentioned four key<br>
>> points which he calls accountabilities and responsibilities: 1.<br>
>> Responsibility by the federal government to secure our borders, 2.<br>
>> Accountability for businesses that break the law by undermining<br>
>> American workers and exploiting undocumented workers,<br>
>> 3. Strengthening our economic competitiveness by creating a legal<br>
>> immigration system that reflects our values and diverse needs, and 4.<br>
>> Responsibility from people who are living in the United States<br>
>> illegally. My question for discussion and my reflection will focus<br>
>> on<br>
>> the president's point number 4. I think that the President plays too<br>
>> much politics here and that he is undermining the scholarship on the<br>
>> everlasting debate on language policy in the United States. Fixing<br>
>> broken immigration system is one thing, but requiring illegal<br>
>> immigrants to learn English as one of the requirements is tantamount<br>
>> to English-Only America movement. Until there is a coherent language<br>
>> policy, by coherent I mean agreed upon by the United States citizens,<br>
>> a unidirectional language requirement by federal officials,<br>
>> especially<br>
>> the president of the United States is getting out of the house<br>
>> through<br>
>> the back door. I am not saying that illegal immigrant should not<br>
>> learn<br>
>> English or Spanish, the point is that so far there is no legal basis<br>
>> to require any one to learn English for what so ever in the United<br>
>> States. If the President is going to initiative a path to language<br>
>> policy weather English or English and Spanish as official languages,<br>
>> then the United States will make a big step forward in solving big<br>
>> issues regarding intercultural relations. To clear understand my<br>
>> point, let's analyze the president approach to learning English as a<br>
>> requirement to illegal immigrant path to the United States<br>
>> Citizenship.<br>
>><br>
>> One of the key requirements that the represent mentioned that<br>
>> illegal immigrants living in U.S. must fulfill to the path of U.S.<br>
>> citizenship is learning English. The president's statement reads: "<br>
>> Those people living here illegally must also be held accountable for<br>
>> their actions and get on the right side of the law by registering and<br>
>> undergoing national security and criminal background checks, paying<br>
>> taxes and a penalty, and learning English before they can get in line<br>
>> to become eligible for citizenship. Being a citizen of this country<br>
>> comes not only with rights but also with fundamental<br>
>> responsibilities.<br>
>> We can create a pathway for legal status that is fair and reflects<br>
>> our<br>
>> values." Wait a minute! Is Mr. President here trying to have his cake<br>
>> and eat it too? Since the president favorite sentence in this<br>
>> immigration debate is "We are a nation of law and a nation of<br>
>> immigrants", is the president telling us that English is going to<br>
>> become the fundamental language of American values? How about the 55<br>
>> millions U.S. Spanish -speakers? Do their language and culture also<br>
>> contribute to the American Values? Should U.S. citizens working for<br>
>> Univisions, Telemondo, UNI-MAS, etc. who may also contribute to the<br>
>> economic competitiveness of U.S. be required to learn English for<br>
>> U.S.<br>
>> citizenship? According to Stewart (1999:6-7), "The Hispanics are<br>
>> currently America's fastest growing ethnic community and their<br>
>> numbers<br>
>> are set to rise to 96.5 million by 2050 (quoting, The Guardian,<br>
>> 16.07.98)." Stewart observes that "This is not without problems as<br>
>> the<br>
>> United States does not have legislation which states that English is<br>
>> the official language of the Union; it has always relied on the<br>
>> desire<br>
>> of immigrants for social assimilation and mobility to consolidate the<br>
>> pre-eminence of English."<br>
>> During the 2008 Democratic presidential election primary debate,<br>
>> President Obama, Senator Obama at that time articulated, when he was<br>
>> asked by a CNN journalist weather English should be the Official<br>
>> language of the United States that, "We should not focus on issue<br>
>> that<br>
>> divide us, instead we should focus on how to fix our broken<br>
>> immigration system." It has been the politics of escape goat forever<br>
>> when it comes to regulating language policy in fair and realistic way<br>
>> in the U.S. President Obama, after winning 75 % of Latino votes<br>
>> without questioning weather they spoke English or not at the time<br>
>> they<br>
>> went voting now is suggesting learning English as a requirement for<br>
>> legal immigration status. If learning a language was an easy task,<br>
>> most college graduates U.S. would be speaking Spanish fluently. Since<br>
>> President Obama likes to look at fair game plays, would not t be a<br>
>> fair game to say all illegal immigrants must learn both English and<br>
>> Spanish as a requirement to citizenship?<br>
>> One may infers that requiring learning English alone is a support<br>
>> to English -Only movement. This approach undermines the substantial<br>
>> contribution of Hispanic culture to the values of the United States.<br>
>> The "Latinazization" (Benitez, 2007) of illigal immigrants may also<br>
>> be<br>
>> a valuable inference if we don't require illegal immigrant to learn<br>
>> Spanish as well. Will various English dialect speakers be required to<br>
>> learn American Standard English if that what Mr. President meant? The<br>
>> "World Englishes" (Mesthrie & Bhatt, 2008) as well as the world<br>
>> Spanishes (Stewart, 1999; Lorenzo-Dus, 2011) can only be used as<br>
>> requirement for national immigration legal status after they have<br>
>> been<br>
>> adopted as Official language of the nation. Otherwise they should not<br>
>> be mentioned in the fixing broken immigration system.<br>
>><br>
>> In Conclusion, It is not only the immigration system that is<br>
>> broken, it is the entire public policy system that is broken. If Mr.<br>
>> President wants to start fixing this broken system of public policy<br>
>> the workable strategy would be looking at the policy of that public<br>
>> or<br>
>> social sector setting, fix it, that is, make it if it is a<br>
>> commonsensical argument and truly reflective of U.S. values, a law of<br>
>> the nation. Since thee is no federal law regulating languages in<br>
>> U.S.,<br>
>> it would illegal to require a given language learning as a<br>
>> requirement to U.S. citizenship. Requiring learning English will<br>
>> sound<br>
>> like a cultural hegemonic strategy and it will not reflect what the<br>
>> president calls "A smart 21st century" - a century of people and<br>
>> communities cohesion by consensus, that is people decide their<br>
>> intercultural democratic rules of governance not bias policy makers.<br>
>> Either English alone or English and Spanish as co-official languages<br>
>> for the United States- why not create a referendum on this issue and<br>
>> stick to what the U.S. diverse population decide. It will make more<br>
>> sense after people will look at these two global languages - both<br>
>> spoken by significant numbers of legal U.S. citizens in the ballot<br>
>> and<br>
>> let the people decide. It is only after that referendum that all<br>
>> cultural groups will live with the decision weather they like it or<br>
>> not. Because it will become the law of the land. Leaving the issue on<br>
>> the policy makers whose bias attitude and cultural hegemony have been<br>
>> demonstrated through centuries will never lead the U.S. to the Smart<br>
>> 21st century language policy. Should not a true vision for the future<br>
>> of the United States plan also for a language which the numbers of<br>
>> its<br>
>> speakers will reach 96.5 million in 2050? Should the U.S. language<br>
>> policymakers understand that a language policy that reflects the<br>
>> cultural reality of the country makes the country more prosperous<br>
>> economically and culturally? May be the example of Luxembourg, South<br>
>> Africa, Paraguay, and Switzerland will inspire us as we plan for a<br>
>> "smart 21st century". What do you think?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> References<br>
>><br>
>> Benitez, C. (2007). Latinization: How Latino culture is transforming<br>
>> the U.S. New York: Paramount<br>
>> Market Publishing.<br>
>> Donnelly, J. (2003). Universal human rights: In theory and practice<br>
>> (2nd. ed.). New York: Cornell<br>
>> University Press.<br>
>> Lorenzo-Dus, N. (ed.) (2011). Spanish at work: Analyzing<br>
>> institutional<br>
>> discourse across the Spanish-<br>
>> speaking world. New York: Palgrave MacMillan.<br>
>> Mesthirie, R. & Bhatt, R. M. (2008). World Englishes: The study of<br>
>> new<br>
>> linguistic varieties. New York:<br>
>> Cambridge University Press.<br>
>> Stewart, M. (1999). The Spanish language today. New York: Routledge.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/fixing-immigration-system-america-s-21st-century-Economy" target="_blank">www.whitehouse.gov/issues/fixing-immigration-system-america-s-21st-century-Economy</a><br>
>><br>
>> <<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/fixing-immigration-system-america-s-21st-century-Economy" target="_blank">http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/fixing-immigration-system-america-s-21st-century-Economy</a><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> *David M. Balosa*<br>
>> *Doctoral Student, PhD Program in Language, Literacy and Culture<br>
>> (LLC)*<br>
>> Research Focus: Intercultural Communication & Cultural Exchange<br>
>> Interculturalists GSO President 2012-2013<br>
>> *University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC)<br>
>> **1000 Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250*<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Edling mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se">Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se">Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se</a>><br>
>> <a href="http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling" target="_blank">http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling</a><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Edling mailing list<br>
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>><br>
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> _______________________________________________<br>
> Edling mailing list<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Edling mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se">Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se</a><br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Edling mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se">Edling@bunner.geol.lu.se</a><br>
<a href="http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling" target="_blank">http://bunner.geol.lu.se/mailman/listinfo/edling</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>