From Fredrik.Ullen at neuro.ki.se Tue Apr 2 12:09:13 2002 From: Fredrik.Ullen at neuro.ki.se (=?Windows-1252?Q?Fredrik_Ull=E9n?=) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:09:13 +0200 Subject: Starting E-Prime Message-ID: Dear all, We'd be interested in starting an E-Prime script in synchrony with an MR camera. Is there a way to trigger the exact start of a script with an external pulse? Regards Fredrik -------------------------------------------------------------- Fredrik Ullén, Assistant Prof., Pianist Neuropediatric Research Unit Dept of Woman and Child Health Karolinska Institutet SE-171 77 Stockholm -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Wed Apr 3 13:17:20 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:17:20 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Starting_E-Prime?= Message-ID: > Dear all, > We'd be interested in starting an E-Prime script in synchrony with an MR camera. Is there > a way to trigger the exact start of a script with an external pulse? Dear Fredrik, I am also in a lab of neuroimaging which is starting using E- Prime. We are just beginner, but we project to trigger the stimuli presentation on a PC from the MR camera pulse with the parrallel port. We declared in object properties parralel port as external device using 889 as decimal adress (&H379 in hexadecimal. E-prime is able to received pulse from fMRI with this port. Unfortunately, we don't still know how read the state of each pin of the parralel port to detect if such a pulse is not in fact a press of a button response, also detected using parralel port. We will try with 'readport' instruction, and perhaps using a loop to read continously the pins value. If you find difficulty, don't hesitate to email us. Perhaps will we solve some analogous problem in the following days. Philippe Pinel INSERM U334, Orsay, France Accédez au courrier électronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 €/mn) ; tél : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34€/mn)" From eclaus at iupui.edu Mon Apr 15 19:32:10 2002 From: eclaus at iupui.edu (Claus, Eric) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:32:10 -0500 Subject: pseudorandomization Message-ID: Our lab is trying to use E Prime to run an auditory oddball experiment. In this experiment, the deviant tone will be presented 5 times and the standard will be presented 295 times. We would like to present these tones in a random order, but we would like to have at least 3 standards between the deviants. Has anybody else figured out how to do this using Inline script, rather than typing in 300 trials in the List object? Thank you in advance. Eric Claus From hhzainab at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:20:47 2002 From: hhzainab at hotmail.com (zainab h.hussein) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:20:47 +0000 Subject: e-prime Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icetsui at graduate.hku.hk Fri Apr 19 07:59:48 2002 From: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk (Ice Tsui) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:59:48 +0800 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: Hello, I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally 4 different kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 trials with each kind of trials appear for 25 times. I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind of trials too frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times that one kind of trial repeats sequentially? Thank you very much!! Best, Ice ______________________________________________________________________ Tsui Sum Yin Ice Mobile: 93221306 Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk ______________________________________________________________________ From anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com Fri Apr 19 14:23:38 2002 From: anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com (Tony Zuccolotto) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:23:38 -0400 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: Ice, There is really no automatic way to tweak the randomization into a form which you like. You could limit the chance of runs by changing the weight on the individual cell types and increasing the number of cycles accordingly until you get 100, e.g. Assuming you have 1 Cycle of 100 Samples (=100 samples) defined as Weight Condition 25 red 25 blue 25 green 25 yellow You could redefine this as 5 Cycles of 20 Samples (=100 Samples) defined as Weight Condition 5 red 5 blue 5 green 5 yellow This would theoretically reduce the maximum run of a single condition to 5 (but in practice it is likely to be even less than that). Note there is an exception at the re-shuffle points, e.g. if you had 2 blue trials as trials 19 & 20 then the list was reshuffled for the next cycle you could start out with blue trials again... Another way to set this up is to allow E-Prime to do an initial shuffling for you and then in the trial proc just save the exemplars in an array (rather than presenting them to the subject). Then you write script logic to cycle through the array and swap individual locations in the array as needed (because you are just swapping you can easily assure that the Ns remain balanced in each condition). Once you have an array with a "valid" randomization then you can either build a string to pass to an ExplicitOrder object and set a List to use the ExplicitOrder (see the E-Basic Help for an example), OR you could dynamically write out a tab-delimited file of the entire set of trials and have another List read in the exemplars at run-time and just run them in sequential order. If you want to take more trial by trial control of exemplar sampling/filtering you can write script to save just the last N conditions sampled in a global array/queue. At the beginning of each trial you use script to compare the current condition with those past. If the condition is not valid (under whatever logic you decide to use) then you just call "Exit Sub" in script. For example to test for and eliminate a single repeat... If c.GetAttrib("Condition") = g_strLastCondition Then Exit Sub Else g_strLastCondition = c.GetAttrib("Condition") End IF The Exit Sub call causes the current Procedure to return with no logging occurring (e.g. you essentially skip the trial). If you choose this algorithm then you must also set the number of cycles on your list to a value higher than you would normally use (because you are throwing away exemplars). Because of this you also have to track the number of trials yourself and cause the List to terminate when the maximum number of trials is hit by calling ListName.Terminate. The other caveat of doing this is that you now also assume responsibility for making sure you have a balanced N in each of your conditions, i.e. E-Prime will just keep presenting trials, if you throw them away it can't guarantee to get equal Ns in all conditions. Hope that gives you some ideas. Tony *** DISCLAIMER: VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER *** Anthony P. Zuccolotto Vice President of Operations Psychology Software Tools, Inc. 2050 Ardmore Boulevard Suite 200 Pittsburgh, PA 15221-4610 Phone 412-271-5040 FAX 412-271-7077 Email anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com Internet http://www.pstnet.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Ice Tsui [mailto:icetsui at graduate.hku.hk] > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:00 AM > To: eprime at mail.talkbank.org > Subject: Problem in randomization > > > Hello, > > I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the > randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally > 4 different > kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 > trials with each > kind of trials appear for 25 times. > > I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind > of trials too > frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times > that one kind of > trial repeats sequentially? > > Thank you very much!! > > Best, > Ice > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Tsui Sum Yin Ice > Mobile: 93221306 > Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > From carne006 at umn.edu Fri Apr 19 15:54:39 2002 From: carne006 at umn.edu (Edward Carney) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:54:39 -0500 Subject: Problem in randomization In-Reply-To: <3CC892AF@webmailb.hku.hk> Message-ID: A technique that I've used is to generate external text file lists that are in an order that you find sufficiently free of clumping. (It's curious, isn't it? True random processes and pseudorandom generators produce clustering that humans find to be too "orderly" for their tastes or their experimental needs.) You may create several of these random orders and choose one randomly for each participant. The simplest way is to do this heuristically--you generate a random order and check it (visually or with a program). If it looks okay, you keep it; if it doesn't meet your criteria, you generate lists until you find one that does. One simple way to do this is to use Excel. Set up one column with the various condition replications. Set up a column next to it with the RAND function in each cell. Then use F9 (Calculate all worksheets) to generate new random numbers. Each time you do, sort on the "RandBetween" column and your items will appear in a "random" order. When you generate a random order you're happy with, transfer the randomized items into a template with all the necessary columns/column names for the E-Prime List object (Weight, Procedure, etc.) and their data. You can record a macro to do the randomizing. Here's mine with the RandBetween function in Column B: Sub Macro1() ' ' Macro1 Macro ' Macro recorded 04/19/2002 ' ' Columns("A:B").Select Calculate Selection.Sort Key1:=Range("B1"), Order1:=xlAscending, _ Header:=xlGuess, OrderCustom:=1, MatchCase:=False, _ Orientation:=xlTopToBottom End Sub Save the Excel file as a Tab-delimited (CSV) file. This is a file that is readable by E-Prime. You then use the option in E-Prime that permits you to load an external text file into a List object. You can either generate a separate ES file for each randomization or have in-line code that permits you to type the name of the text file into a dialog box and load it yourself with E-Basic code. You can also write a program to generate the randomizations. I've done this in PERL, but it's doable in AWK, too. Regards, Edward Carney Research Associate Dept. of Communication Disorders, U of Minnesota On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Ice Tsui wrote: > Hello, > > I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the > randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally 4 different > kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 trials with each > kind of trials appear for 25 times. > > I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind of trials too > frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times that one kind of > trial repeats sequentially? > > Thank you very much!! > > Best, > Ice > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Tsui Sum Yin Ice > Mobile: 93221306 > Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > From icetsui at graduate.hku.hk Tue Apr 23 02:14:26 2002 From: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk (Ice Tsui) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:14:26 +0800 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: I have found problem in getting the order of the sequence. I have used to function "Order.Advance" so as to generate a list of random ordered trials, however, I can't get the way the view the order of the trials from Eprime, could you give me some suggestions in doing so? Thank you very much. It seems to be that doing the randomization in Excel is more simple... It does not make great different, too. Is it right? Best Regards, Ice >===== Original Message From "Tony Zuccolotto" ===== >Ice, > >There is really no automatic way to tweak the randomization into a form >which you like. > >You could limit the chance of runs by changing the weight on the >individual cell types and increasing the number of cycles accordingly >until you get 100, e.g. > >Assuming you have 1 Cycle of 100 Samples (=100 samples) defined as >Weight Condition >25 red >25 blue >25 green >25 yellow > >You could redefine this as 5 Cycles of 20 Samples (=100 Samples) defined >as >Weight Condition >5 red >5 blue >5 green >5 yellow > >This would theoretically reduce the maximum run of a single condition to >5 (but in practice it is likely to be even less than that). Note there >is an exception at the re-shuffle points, e.g. if you had 2 blue trials >as trials 19 & 20 then the list was reshuffled for the next cycle you >could start out with blue trials again... > >Another way to set this up is to allow E-Prime to do an initial >shuffling for you and then in the trial proc just save the exemplars in >an array (rather than presenting them to the subject). Then you write >script logic to cycle through the array and swap individual locations in >the array as needed (because you are just swapping you can easily assure >that the Ns remain balanced in each condition). > >Once you have an array with a "valid" randomization then you can either >build a string to pass to an ExplicitOrder object and set a List to use >the ExplicitOrder (see the E-Basic Help for an example), OR you could >dynamically write out a tab-delimited file of the entire set of trials >and have another List read in the exemplars at run-time and just run >them in sequential order. > >If you want to take more trial by trial control of exemplar >sampling/filtering you can write script to save just the last N >conditions sampled in a global array/queue. At the beginning of each >trial you use script to compare the current condition with those past. >If the condition is not valid (under whatever logic you decide to use) >then you just call "Exit Sub" in script. For example to test for and >eliminate a single repeat... > > If c.GetAttrib("Condition") = g_strLastCondition Then > Exit Sub > Else > g_strLastCondition = c.GetAttrib("Condition") > End IF > >The Exit Sub call causes the current Procedure to return with no logging >occurring (e.g. you essentially skip the trial). > >If you choose this algorithm then you must also set the number of cycles >on your list to a value higher than you would normally use (because you >are throwing away exemplars). Because of this you also have to track >the number of trials yourself and cause the List to terminate when the >maximum number of trials is hit by calling ListName.Terminate. The >other caveat of doing this is that you now also assume responsibility >for making sure you have a balanced N in each of your conditions, i.e. >E-Prime will just keep presenting trials, if you throw them away it >can't guarantee to get equal Ns in all conditions. > >Hope that gives you some ideas. >Tony > >*** DISCLAIMER: VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT NECESSARILY >REFLECT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER *** >Anthony P. Zuccolotto >Vice President of Operations >Psychology Software Tools, Inc. >2050 Ardmore Boulevard >Suite 200 >Pittsburgh, PA 15221-4610 >Phone 412-271-5040 >FAX 412-271-7077 >Email anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com >Internet http://www.pstnet.com/ > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ice Tsui [mailto:icetsui at graduate.hku.hk] >> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:00 AM >> To: eprime at mail.talkbank.org >> Subject: Problem in randomization >> >> >> Hello, >> >> I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the >> randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally >> 4 different >> kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 >> trials with each >> kind of trials appear for 25 times. >> >> I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind >> of trials too >> frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times >> that one kind of >> trial repeats sequentially? >> >> Thank you very much!! >> >> Best, >> Ice >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> Tsui Sum Yin Ice >> Mobile: 93221306 >> Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ Tsui Sum Yin Ice Mobile: 93221306 Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk ______________________________________________________________________ From hhzainab at hotmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:04:35 2002 From: hhzainab at hotmail.com (zainab h.hussein) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:04:35 +0000 Subject: Hoax virus warning Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Mon Apr 29 14:49:43 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:49:43 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Timing_&_Duration_Error?= Message-ID: Dear E-prime users, I have a question concerning timing. When I run trials during an experiment, I noticed that some large delays happened (in about 2-3% of the trials). Such delays are about 700-900ms. Consequently, some trials are excessively long, and the PC is not ready to detect pulse from the fMRI scanner. I report here the Duration-Error of a TextDisplay object, which is required to present a black screen during 500 ms; TextDisplay4.DurationError; 0 / 0 / 0 / 834 / 991 / 993 / 0 / 0 /.... I don´t know if the problem is due to E-prime, or Windows. I think that E-prime works with an High-priority mode...consequently, as it is written in E-prime manual, no timing error more than 3ms could happen. If someone could help me for this simple but crucial question... Thank you, Philippe Pinel INSERM U562, Orsay, France Accédez au courrier électronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 €/mn) ; tél : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34€/mn)" From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Mon Apr 29 14:49:18 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:49:18 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear E-prime users, I have a question concerning timing. When I run trials during an experiment, I noticed that some large delays happened (in about 2-3% of the trials). Such delays are about 700-900ms. Consequently, some trials are excessively long, and the PC is not ready to detect pulse from the fMRI scanner. I report here the Duration-Error of a TextDisplay object, which is required to present a black screen during 500 ms; TextDisplay4.DurationError; 0 / 0 / 0 / 834 / 991 / 993 / 0 / 0 /…. I don’t know if the problem is due to E-prime, or Windows. I think that E-prime works with an High-priority mode...consequently, as it is written in E-prime manual, no timing error more than 3ms could happen. If someone could help me for this simple but crucial question... Thank you, Philippe Pinel INSERM U562, Orsay, France Accédez au courrier électronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 €/mn) ; tél : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34€/mn)" From ekennedy at ihug.co.nz Mon Apr 29 20:48:05 2002 From: ekennedy at ihug.co.nz (Sharyn Kennedy) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:48:05 +1200 Subject: Eprime with Windows 2000 Message-ID: Hello everyone, Has anyone yet installed the current version of eprime with Windows 2000? If so, were there any problems? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thankyou, Sharyn Kennedy -- From Fredrik.Ullen at neuro.ki.se Tue Apr 2 12:09:13 2002 From: Fredrik.Ullen at neuro.ki.se (=?Windows-1252?Q?Fredrik_Ull=E9n?=) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:09:13 +0200 Subject: Starting E-Prime Message-ID: Dear all, We'd be interested in starting an E-Prime script in synchrony with an MR camera. Is there a way to trigger the exact start of a script with an external pulse? Regards Fredrik -------------------------------------------------------------- Fredrik Ull?n, Assistant Prof., Pianist Neuropediatric Research Unit Dept of Woman and Child Health Karolinska Institutet SE-171 77 Stockholm -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Wed Apr 3 13:17:20 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:17:20 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Starting_E-Prime?= Message-ID: > Dear all, > We'd be interested in starting an E-Prime script in synchrony with an MR camera. Is there > a way to trigger the exact start of a script with an external pulse? Dear Fredrik, I am also in a lab of neuroimaging which is starting using E- Prime. We are just beginner, but we project to trigger the stimuli presentation on a PC from the MR camera pulse with the parrallel port. We declared in object properties parralel port as external device using 889 as decimal adress (&H379 in hexadecimal. E-prime is able to received pulse from fMRI with this port. Unfortunately, we don't still know how read the state of each pin of the parralel port to detect if such a pulse is not in fact a press of a button response, also detected using parralel port. We will try with 'readport' instruction, and perhaps using a loop to read continously the pins value. If you find difficulty, don't hesitate to email us. Perhaps will we solve some analogous problem in the following days. Philippe Pinel INSERM U334, Orsay, France Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 ?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn)" From eclaus at iupui.edu Mon Apr 15 19:32:10 2002 From: eclaus at iupui.edu (Claus, Eric) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:32:10 -0500 Subject: pseudorandomization Message-ID: Our lab is trying to use E Prime to run an auditory oddball experiment. In this experiment, the deviant tone will be presented 5 times and the standard will be presented 295 times. We would like to present these tones in a random order, but we would like to have at least 3 standards between the deviants. Has anybody else figured out how to do this using Inline script, rather than typing in 300 trials in the List object? Thank you in advance. Eric Claus From hhzainab at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:20:47 2002 From: hhzainab at hotmail.com (zainab h.hussein) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:20:47 +0000 Subject: e-prime Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icetsui at graduate.hku.hk Fri Apr 19 07:59:48 2002 From: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk (Ice Tsui) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:59:48 +0800 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: Hello, I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally 4 different kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 trials with each kind of trials appear for 25 times. I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind of trials too frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times that one kind of trial repeats sequentially? Thank you very much!! Best, Ice ______________________________________________________________________ Tsui Sum Yin Ice Mobile: 93221306 Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk ______________________________________________________________________ From anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com Fri Apr 19 14:23:38 2002 From: anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com (Tony Zuccolotto) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:23:38 -0400 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: Ice, There is really no automatic way to tweak the randomization into a form which you like. You could limit the chance of runs by changing the weight on the individual cell types and increasing the number of cycles accordingly until you get 100, e.g. Assuming you have 1 Cycle of 100 Samples (=100 samples) defined as Weight Condition 25 red 25 blue 25 green 25 yellow You could redefine this as 5 Cycles of 20 Samples (=100 Samples) defined as Weight Condition 5 red 5 blue 5 green 5 yellow This would theoretically reduce the maximum run of a single condition to 5 (but in practice it is likely to be even less than that). Note there is an exception at the re-shuffle points, e.g. if you had 2 blue trials as trials 19 & 20 then the list was reshuffled for the next cycle you could start out with blue trials again... Another way to set this up is to allow E-Prime to do an initial shuffling for you and then in the trial proc just save the exemplars in an array (rather than presenting them to the subject). Then you write script logic to cycle through the array and swap individual locations in the array as needed (because you are just swapping you can easily assure that the Ns remain balanced in each condition). Once you have an array with a "valid" randomization then you can either build a string to pass to an ExplicitOrder object and set a List to use the ExplicitOrder (see the E-Basic Help for an example), OR you could dynamically write out a tab-delimited file of the entire set of trials and have another List read in the exemplars at run-time and just run them in sequential order. If you want to take more trial by trial control of exemplar sampling/filtering you can write script to save just the last N conditions sampled in a global array/queue. At the beginning of each trial you use script to compare the current condition with those past. If the condition is not valid (under whatever logic you decide to use) then you just call "Exit Sub" in script. For example to test for and eliminate a single repeat... If c.GetAttrib("Condition") = g_strLastCondition Then Exit Sub Else g_strLastCondition = c.GetAttrib("Condition") End IF The Exit Sub call causes the current Procedure to return with no logging occurring (e.g. you essentially skip the trial). If you choose this algorithm then you must also set the number of cycles on your list to a value higher than you would normally use (because you are throwing away exemplars). Because of this you also have to track the number of trials yourself and cause the List to terminate when the maximum number of trials is hit by calling ListName.Terminate. The other caveat of doing this is that you now also assume responsibility for making sure you have a balanced N in each of your conditions, i.e. E-Prime will just keep presenting trials, if you throw them away it can't guarantee to get equal Ns in all conditions. Hope that gives you some ideas. Tony *** DISCLAIMER: VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER *** Anthony P. Zuccolotto Vice President of Operations Psychology Software Tools, Inc. 2050 Ardmore Boulevard Suite 200 Pittsburgh, PA 15221-4610 Phone 412-271-5040 FAX 412-271-7077 Email anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com Internet http://www.pstnet.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Ice Tsui [mailto:icetsui at graduate.hku.hk] > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:00 AM > To: eprime at mail.talkbank.org > Subject: Problem in randomization > > > Hello, > > I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the > randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally > 4 different > kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 > trials with each > kind of trials appear for 25 times. > > I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind > of trials too > frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times > that one kind of > trial repeats sequentially? > > Thank you very much!! > > Best, > Ice > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Tsui Sum Yin Ice > Mobile: 93221306 > Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > From carne006 at umn.edu Fri Apr 19 15:54:39 2002 From: carne006 at umn.edu (Edward Carney) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:54:39 -0500 Subject: Problem in randomization In-Reply-To: <3CC892AF@webmailb.hku.hk> Message-ID: A technique that I've used is to generate external text file lists that are in an order that you find sufficiently free of clumping. (It's curious, isn't it? True random processes and pseudorandom generators produce clustering that humans find to be too "orderly" for their tastes or their experimental needs.) You may create several of these random orders and choose one randomly for each participant. The simplest way is to do this heuristically--you generate a random order and check it (visually or with a program). If it looks okay, you keep it; if it doesn't meet your criteria, you generate lists until you find one that does. One simple way to do this is to use Excel. Set up one column with the various condition replications. Set up a column next to it with the RAND function in each cell. Then use F9 (Calculate all worksheets) to generate new random numbers. Each time you do, sort on the "RandBetween" column and your items will appear in a "random" order. When you generate a random order you're happy with, transfer the randomized items into a template with all the necessary columns/column names for the E-Prime List object (Weight, Procedure, etc.) and their data. You can record a macro to do the randomizing. Here's mine with the RandBetween function in Column B: Sub Macro1() ' ' Macro1 Macro ' Macro recorded 04/19/2002 ' ' Columns("A:B").Select Calculate Selection.Sort Key1:=Range("B1"), Order1:=xlAscending, _ Header:=xlGuess, OrderCustom:=1, MatchCase:=False, _ Orientation:=xlTopToBottom End Sub Save the Excel file as a Tab-delimited (CSV) file. This is a file that is readable by E-Prime. You then use the option in E-Prime that permits you to load an external text file into a List object. You can either generate a separate ES file for each randomization or have in-line code that permits you to type the name of the text file into a dialog box and load it yourself with E-Basic code. You can also write a program to generate the randomizations. I've done this in PERL, but it's doable in AWK, too. Regards, Edward Carney Research Associate Dept. of Communication Disorders, U of Minnesota On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Ice Tsui wrote: > Hello, > > I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the > randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally 4 different > kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 trials with each > kind of trials appear for 25 times. > > I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind of trials too > frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times that one kind of > trial repeats sequentially? > > Thank you very much!! > > Best, > Ice > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Tsui Sum Yin Ice > Mobile: 93221306 > Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > From icetsui at graduate.hku.hk Tue Apr 23 02:14:26 2002 From: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk (Ice Tsui) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:14:26 +0800 Subject: Problem in randomization Message-ID: I have found problem in getting the order of the sequence. I have used to function "Order.Advance" so as to generate a list of random ordered trials, however, I can't get the way the view the order of the trials from Eprime, could you give me some suggestions in doing so? Thank you very much. It seems to be that doing the randomization in Excel is more simple... It does not make great different, too. Is it right? Best Regards, Ice >===== Original Message From "Tony Zuccolotto" ===== >Ice, > >There is really no automatic way to tweak the randomization into a form >which you like. > >You could limit the chance of runs by changing the weight on the >individual cell types and increasing the number of cycles accordingly >until you get 100, e.g. > >Assuming you have 1 Cycle of 100 Samples (=100 samples) defined as >Weight Condition >25 red >25 blue >25 green >25 yellow > >You could redefine this as 5 Cycles of 20 Samples (=100 Samples) defined >as >Weight Condition >5 red >5 blue >5 green >5 yellow > >This would theoretically reduce the maximum run of a single condition to >5 (but in practice it is likely to be even less than that). Note there >is an exception at the re-shuffle points, e.g. if you had 2 blue trials >as trials 19 & 20 then the list was reshuffled for the next cycle you >could start out with blue trials again... > >Another way to set this up is to allow E-Prime to do an initial >shuffling for you and then in the trial proc just save the exemplars in >an array (rather than presenting them to the subject). Then you write >script logic to cycle through the array and swap individual locations in >the array as needed (because you are just swapping you can easily assure >that the Ns remain balanced in each condition). > >Once you have an array with a "valid" randomization then you can either >build a string to pass to an ExplicitOrder object and set a List to use >the ExplicitOrder (see the E-Basic Help for an example), OR you could >dynamically write out a tab-delimited file of the entire set of trials >and have another List read in the exemplars at run-time and just run >them in sequential order. > >If you want to take more trial by trial control of exemplar >sampling/filtering you can write script to save just the last N >conditions sampled in a global array/queue. At the beginning of each >trial you use script to compare the current condition with those past. >If the condition is not valid (under whatever logic you decide to use) >then you just call "Exit Sub" in script. For example to test for and >eliminate a single repeat... > > If c.GetAttrib("Condition") = g_strLastCondition Then > Exit Sub > Else > g_strLastCondition = c.GetAttrib("Condition") > End IF > >The Exit Sub call causes the current Procedure to return with no logging >occurring (e.g. you essentially skip the trial). > >If you choose this algorithm then you must also set the number of cycles >on your list to a value higher than you would normally use (because you >are throwing away exemplars). Because of this you also have to track >the number of trials yourself and cause the List to terminate when the >maximum number of trials is hit by calling ListName.Terminate. The >other caveat of doing this is that you now also assume responsibility >for making sure you have a balanced N in each of your conditions, i.e. >E-Prime will just keep presenting trials, if you throw them away it >can't guarantee to get equal Ns in all conditions. > >Hope that gives you some ideas. >Tony > >*** DISCLAIMER: VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT NECESSARILY >REFLECT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER *** >Anthony P. Zuccolotto >Vice President of Operations >Psychology Software Tools, Inc. >2050 Ardmore Boulevard >Suite 200 >Pittsburgh, PA 15221-4610 >Phone 412-271-5040 >FAX 412-271-7077 >Email anthony.zuccolotto at pstnet.com >Internet http://www.pstnet.com/ > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ice Tsui [mailto:icetsui at graduate.hku.hk] >> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:00 AM >> To: eprime at mail.talkbank.org >> Subject: Problem in randomization >> >> >> Hello, >> >> I am a new user of the Eprime. I have one question to ask about the >> randomization in Eprime. In my experiment, there are totally >> 4 different >> kinds of trials, combining together to form a block with 100 >> trials with each >> kind of trials appear for 25 times. >> >> I found that the randomized events sometimes repeat one kind >> of trials too >> frequently. Is there any way to reduce the number of times >> that one kind of >> trial repeats sequentially? >> >> Thank you very much!! >> >> Best, >> Ice >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> Tsui Sum Yin Ice >> Mobile: 93221306 >> Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ Tsui Sum Yin Ice Mobile: 93221306 Email: icetsui at graduate.hku.hk ______________________________________________________________________ From hhzainab at hotmail.com Sun Apr 28 22:04:35 2002 From: hhzainab at hotmail.com (zainab h.hussein) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:04:35 +0000 Subject: Hoax virus warning Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Mon Apr 29 14:49:43 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:49:43 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Timing_&_Duration_Error?= Message-ID: Dear E-prime users, I have a question concerning timing. When I run trials during an experiment, I noticed that some large delays happened (in about 2-3% of the trials). Such delays are about 700-900ms. Consequently, some trials are excessively long, and the PC is not ready to detect pulse from the fMRI scanner. I report here the Duration-Error of a TextDisplay object, which is required to present a black screen during 500 ms; TextDisplay4.DurationError; 0 / 0 / 0 / 834 / 991 / 993 / 0 / 0 /.... I don?t know if the problem is due to E-prime, or Windows. I think that E-prime works with an High-priority mode...consequently, as it is written in E-prime manual, no timing error more than 3ms could happen. If someone could help me for this simple but crucial question... Thank you, Philippe Pinel INSERM U562, Orsay, France Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 ?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn)" From philippe.pinel at laposte.net Mon Apr 29 14:49:18 2002 From: philippe.pinel at laposte.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?philippe.pinel?=) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:49:18 +0200 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear E-prime users, I have a question concerning timing. When I run trials during an experiment, I noticed that some large delays happened (in about 2-3% of the trials). Such delays are about 700-900ms. Consequently, some trials are excessively long, and the PC is not ready to detect pulse from the fMRI scanner. I report here the Duration-Error of a TextDisplay object, which is required to present a black screen during 500 ms; TextDisplay4.DurationError; 0 / 0 / 0 / 834 / 991 / 993 / 0 / 0 /…. I don’t know if the problem is due to E-prime, or Windows. I think that E-prime works with an High-priority mode...consequently, as it is written in E-prime manual, no timing error more than 3ms could happen. If someone could help me for this simple but crucial question... Thank you, Philippe Pinel INSERM U562, Orsay, France Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,13 ?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn)" From ekennedy at ihug.co.nz Mon Apr 29 20:48:05 2002 From: ekennedy at ihug.co.nz (Sharyn Kennedy) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:48:05 +1200 Subject: Eprime with Windows 2000 Message-ID: Hello everyone, Has anyone yet installed the current version of eprime with Windows 2000? If so, were there any problems? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thankyou, Sharyn Kennedy --