<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 10:53 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:e-prime@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">e-prime@googlegroups.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<li style="color:#555555" type="square"><a style="color:15c;text-decoration:none" href="#13af441109236b15_group_thread_0">Simple cumulative timing question</a> [4 Updates]</li>
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<div style="background-color:#f5f5f5;font-family:arial;border-top:1px solid #e5e5e5;padding:4px 0 5px 32px"> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/e-prime/t/59a24c90b3f8b867" style="color:15c;text-decoration:none" target="_blank">Simple cumulative timing question</a></div>
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<span>Scott <<a href="mailto:saultsj@missouri.edu" target="_blank">saultsj@missouri.edu</a>></span> Nov 11 11:35AM -0800
<br> <br>
Sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear. This adjustment is ONLY done for *<br>
EVENT* timing. In fact, what I'm asking about is how to take this into <br>
account, exactly what to do, when using a mixture of event and cumulative <br>
timings. Based on your response, I still might be saying something wrong -- <br>
if so, I'm sorry to to be unclear. I really thought that this ~10 ms <br>
'adjustment' was obvious in the documentation, though I also know that the <br>
documentation is old and could be outdated, and one cannot always just <br>
following anyone's advice, even PST's. What I'm referring to is printed in <br>
bold in the *E-Prime User’s Guide Chapter 3: Critical Timing* (page 99):<br>
The equation to use for determining what stimulus duration to specify in <br>
E-Prime is as follows:<br>
*Stimulus Duration to Specify = (Refresh Duration ms/cycle * Number of <br>
cycles) - 10ms*<br>
Part of the reason for doing this, as I understand it, is because one can <br>
never assume that the refresh rate will ever be exactly 60 hz (or anything <br>
else). <br>
<br>
This is what I meant to say, but maybe I did not, because the documentation <br>
that I have seen seems pretty explicit about this, for *EVENT* timing (in <br>
fact they explain this for most of 2 pages of Chapter 3). Now that I have <br>
hopefully clarified what I was *trying* to say, please tell me: Has this <br>
recommendation changed? If so, someone *please* explain and set me <br>
straight. I usually have done this (except in certain circumstances), <br>
starting with E-Prime 1 and continuing with E-Prime 2. Maybe you have more <br>
current documentation, FrankBank. What do you see for actual OTO timings in <br>
your data when you have used *EVENT* timing mode, across several hundred <br>
trials or so when setting a 100 ms stimulus duration for 100 ms? If it <br>
always works like that (with no extra refresh cycles), then I suppose <br>
there's no reason to do it differently.<br>
<br>
On Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:00:46 PM UTC-6, FrankBank wrote:<br>
<p> </p>
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<span>Scott <<a href="mailto:saultsj@missouri.edu" target="_blank">saultsj@missouri.edu</a>></span> Nov 11 01:04PM -0800
<br> <br>
PS -- My original response was to David's suggestion above setting one <br>
object for Cumulative and then: "The rest of your objects may then use <br>
Event or Cumulative timing mode, as seems most appropriate...", so I was <br>
asking about using this combination of timing modes. I'm sorry if I've <br>
confused this thread about Cumulative timing mode with another question <br>
(meant to be related) about Event timing mode. I suppose David will explain <br>
how simple math can answer my question. I've been reluctant to mix timing <br>
modes in a trial or experiment because I wasn't sure about how to set <br>
durations for various objects set for different timing modes. I thought <br>
that the documentation recommended a "good rule of thumb..." for setting <br>
the "*stimulus duration to 10ms below the expected total duration...*" to <br>
obtain the most accurate (that is, consistent) individual event durations <br>
for EVENT timing mode. I assume that this "rule of thumb" should only apply <br>
to EVENT timing (thought maybe I'm wrong). I'm more unsure about what to do <br>
when *combining* the two timing modes. Do you ignore this "rule of thumb" <br>
even when using only EVENT timing, FrankBank, or have I just confused you <br>
(and maybe everyone else) by interjecting an EVENT timing issue into this <br>
discussion of CUMULATIVE timing; if the latter, I apologize. Regardless, I <br>
expect David eventually will explain why my question is dumb and the answer <br>
is simple. I admit that I have done nothing, so far, to test combinations <br>
of event and cumulative durations and timings within a trial.<br>
<br>
On Sunday, November 11, 2012 1:35:52 PM UTC-6, Scott wrote:<br>
<p> </p>
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<span>Scott <<a href="mailto:saultsj@missouri.edu" target="_blank">saultsj@missouri.edu</a>></span> Nov 11 03:10PM -0800
<br> <br>
PPS - I just downloaded the most recent E-Prime 2 documentation and <br>
discovered that its critical timing chapter is much different. Please note <br>
that I have NOT yet upgraded to the *E-Prime 2.0 Production Release*<<a href="http://www.pstnet.com/support/download.asp?Type=e-prime_2_0" target="_blank">http://www.pstnet.com/support/download.asp?Type=e-prime_2_0</a>>; <br>
I'm still using *E-Prime 2.0 Professional Release Candidate Build 2.0.8.90a*to avoid potential compatibility problems with programs our lab is current <br>
running, at least until I become more familiar with the changes. Obviously, <br>
some of the documentation has changed. The page numbers and quotes I posted <br>
are not applicable to the most recent user's guide. I cannot find any <br>
reference to the "rule of thumb" I quoted from a previous user's guide. <br>
Nevertheless, page 94 of this new guide, in the "Further information <br>
column" does mention and provide the following link:<br>
KB 3025 <<a href="http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3025" target="_blank">http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3025</a>> INFO: <br>
Fast/Single<br>
Refresh Presentation in<br>
E-Prime<br>
This Knowledge Base article still refers to the same suggestion (which I've <br>
underlined) as before, under *Important Points*:<br>
As stated in the Critical Timing chapter, *the general rule of thumb when <br>
working with critical timing is to subtract 10 ms from the intended <br>
duration *to account for delays that result from waiting for the next <br>
vertical blank (the beginning of the refresh cycle). This, alone, may help <br>
you minimize the OnsetDelays in your experiment.<br>
<br>
When I search the new user's guide for "rule of thumb", I don't find <br>
anything. Maybe some feature in the Production Release makes this <br>
unnecessary or even bad advice. -- I'm really not sure. Nevertheless, I <br>
have found that following this rule can help minimize missed vertical <br>
blanks and the occasional extra refresh cycle for *E-Prime version 2.0.8.90a<br>
*, as well as for E-Prime 1.2, even for display durations longer than 1 or <br>
2 refresh cycles. Obviously I need to carefully read the latest <br>
documentation and learn more about the new Production Release, and test it, <br>
before I say anything more about using E-Prime, much less start using the <br>
Production Release for my own experiments. I'm sorry for the confusion. <br>
Perhaps this has been discussed before on this forum. I admit I don't <br>
carefully read every post on this form, nor have I searched for other <br>
posting about this (possibly outdated) "rule of thumb". I will do that <br>
asap, to find what I might have missed about this topic.<br>
<br>
On Sunday, November 11, 2012 3:04:27 PM UTC-6, Scott wrote:<br>
<p> </p>
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<span>Scott <<a href="mailto:saultsj@missouri.edu" target="_blank">saultsj@missouri.edu</a>></span> Nov 11 04:04PM -0800
<br> <br>
OK -- Here's some clarification and correction:<br>
3027 - FEATURE: <<a href="http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3027" target="_blank">http://www.pstnet.com/support/kb.asp?TopicID=3027</a>>RefreshAlignment <br>
locks into nearest refresh vertical blank to promote timing accuracy<br>
<br>
It's something I missed that evidently was introduced even BEFORE the <br>
production release, since this KB article seemed to have been originally <br>
posted 1/5/2007 9:25:00 PM (GMT,) but subsequently updated 1/4/2012 4:10:00 <br>
PM (GMT). I don't see any extended discussions of this change, or exactly <br>
when it occurred, from a quick search of this forum for RefreshAlignment. <br>
However, your analysis, <br>
FrankBank, appears to be correct regarding the consequences of RefreshAlignment <br>
when strictly applying the quoted "rule of thumb" . This feature change may <br>
have occurred when E-Prime 2 was first introduced and I overlooked it and <br>
the potential consequences of continuing to use a 'rule' I learned for <br>
E-Prime 1. Again, I apologize for my confusion, and for interjectingconfusion into this forum.I'm not sorry to discover my error, however, and <br>
to learn things about E-Prime that I need to research more thoroughly. <br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:10:42 PM UTC-6, Scott wrote:<br>
<p> </p>
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