postposition on finite verb forms?

[Tom Givon]

Thanks, Paul,

Yes, that was the original data. But as typologists we need not only to
catalogue the cross-linguistic distribution of facts, but also to try and
understand how they come about, especially when they appear to go against the
universal grain.  So, even in a language where you have case-marking cropping up
on the most finite verbal construction, we still need to ask ourselves--what is
the mechanism/pathway leading to such a less-than-typical development? And my
prediction would still be that the process starts with least-finite verbal
constructions, then slides slowly up the finiteness gradient by small-step
analogical steps (provided of course there is communicative motivation...) One
could thus look for Greenberg-type of implicational hierarchies,  (i)
synchronic: "if in more finite, then also in less-finite (but not vice versa)";
and (ii) diachronic "earlier in less finite than in more finite".

Best,  TG

==================

Paul Hopper wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I'm puzzled. Wasn't the whole point of Nino's observation about Georgian
> that started this thread precisely that the postposition occurred on a
> completely finite verb form?
>
> Paul
>
> >
> > I think in considering all example of use of pre-/post-positions with
> > verbs (or verbal constructions, really) we need to assess the degree of
> > finiteness of the verbal construction in question. Since we can quantify
> > finiteness (or, to use Haj Ross's old term, 'nouniness') on a sliding
> > scale, we can perhaps make some general predictions: That
> > pre/postpositions (or, to be more general, nominal case marking) on verbs
> > or verbal constructions will tend to occur in less finite constructions,
> > maybe ones that show other facets of nominality (articles, genitive
> > subjects or object, nominalizing morphemes on the verb, adjectives
> > modifying the nominalized verb,  subject or object position inside another
> > main clause). As a schematic illustration:
> >
> > To    her             great knowledge  of-math       (she now added...)
> > PRE GEN/SUBJ ADJ  V-NOM     GEN-N/OBJ
> >
> > Best,  TG
> >
> > ============================
> >
> > Danielle Cyr wrote:
> >
> >> In spoken Québécois (i.e. Canadian French) we have one similar
> >> construction:
> >>
> >> Elle            s'                      est             manière
> >> d'      excusée She             REFLEXIVE       be-AUX  kind
> >> of      excused 'She kind of excused herself'
> >>
> >> Among the younger generation of Quebecois speakers, we witness the rise
> >>  of other forms of the same phenomena:
> >>
> >> Elle s'est excusée genre                (genre/kind) Elle s'est excusée
> >> style                (style) Elle s'est excusée comme        (like) 'She
> >> kind of excused herself'
> >>
> >> Danielle E. Cyr, assoc. prof. Department of French Studies York
> >> University/Calumet College 207 4700 Keele Street Toronto, Ontario Canada
> >> M3J 1P3 Tel. 1-416-736-2100  ext. 30180 Fax 1-416-736-5734
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> ---------------------------
> Paul Hopper
> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of the Humanities
> Department of English
> Carnegie Mellon University
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213, USA
> Telephone (412) 268-7174
> Fax (412) 268-7989