FUNKNET Digest, Vol 83, Issue 2
Guillermo Soto Vergara
guillermosotovergara at gmail.com
Wed Aug 11 17:50:17 UTC 2010
In some American Spanish dialects you can use past perfect instead of
simple past in some contexts.
In some areas (v. gr.in the Andes) you can use past perfect instead of
simple past or even present as a marker of evidentiality.
Guillermo Soto
Universidad de Chile
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:00 PM, <funknet-request at mailman.rice.edu> wrote:
> Send FUNKNET mailing list submissions to
> funknet at mailman.rice.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/funknet
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> funknet-request at mailman.rice.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> funknet-owner at mailman.rice.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of FUNKNET digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. past perfect for past (Moore, John)
> 2. Re: past perfect for past (john at research.haifa.ac.il)
> 3. Re: past perfect for past (Cameron, Richard)
> 4. Re: past perfect for past (Tom Givon)
> 5. query (Denis Donovan)
> 6. Re: past perfect for past (john at research.haifa.ac.il)
> 7. Second call - The Third Conference of the Scandinavian
> Association for Language and Cognition (Elisabeth Engberg - Pedersen)
> 8. [Fwd: Re : Re: past perfect for past] (Tom Givon)
> 9. message from Pablo Kitchuk (Tom Givon)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:36:58 -0700
> From: "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [FUNKNET] past perfect for past
> To: "funknet at mailman.rice.edu" <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <2DDBB3E58272D646A9066A2A59BC578220945B3D96 at MBX5.AD.UCSD.EDU>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I heard someone claim that younger speakers of American English will use the past perfect ('I'd gone') instead of the simple past ('I went') in colloquial speech. Has anyone heard of this, and if so, does anyone know of any literature n it?
>
> thanks, John
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:09:58 +0300
> From: john at research.haifa.ac.il
> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] past perfect for past
> To: "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>
> Cc: "funknet at mailman.rice.edu" <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <1281470998.4c61b21663069 at webmail.haifa.ac.il>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> About 25 years ago I noticed this sort of this in the usage of speakers of Black
> English. On closer analysis, I found that it was used particularly for completed
> actions at the beginning of narrative sequences, e.g. starting a personal
> story with 'I'd gone to New York last weekend and I saw my cousin and he told
> me...'. It wasn't used for past tenses in general, just in that context.
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>:
>
>> I heard someone claim that younger speakers of American English will use the
>> past perfect ('I'd gone') instead of the simple past ('I went') in colloquial
>> speech. Has anyone heard of this, and if so, does anyone know of any
>> literature n it?
>>
>> thanks, John
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:29:21 -0500
> From: "Cameron, Richard" <rcameron at uic.edu>
> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] past perfect for past
> To: john at research.haifa.ac.il
> Cc: "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>, "funknet at mailman.rice.edu"
> <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <6f1e9a7bbf5d97778ed0996a83349da4.squirrel at webmail.uic.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> For this alternation in AAVE, see:
>
> Rickford, John. 1999. African American Vernacular English. Blackwell
> Publishers : Oxford.
>
> Chapter 3: Preterite Had + Verb-ed in the Narratives of African American
> Pre-adolescents
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, August 10, 2010 3:09 pm, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>> About 25 years ago I noticed this sort of this in the usage of speakers of
>> Black
>> English. On closer analysis, I found that it was used particularly for
>> completed
>> actions at the beginning of narrative sequences, e.g. starting a personal
>> story with 'I'd gone to New York last weekend and I saw my cousin and he
>> told
>> me...'. It wasn't used for past tenses in general, just in that context.
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>:
>>
>>> I heard someone claim that younger speakers of American English will use
>>> the
>>> past perfect ('I'd gone') instead of the simple past ('I went') in
>>> colloquial
>>> speech. Has anyone heard of this, and if so, does anyone know of any
>>> literature n it?
>>>
>>> thanks, John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:29:49 -0600
> From: Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>
> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] past perfect for past
> To: john at research.haifa.ac.il
> Cc: "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>, "funknet at mailman.rice.edu"
> <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <4C61C4CD.6020402 at uoregon.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> Maybe it's good to remember that the shift from "perfect" to "past" is
> one of the most natural, wide-spread ways of getting past-tense marking. TG
> =======
>
>
>
> john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>> About 25 years ago I noticed this sort of this in the usage of speakers of Black
>> English. On closer analysis, I found that it was used particularly for completed
>> actions at the beginning of narrative sequences, e.g. starting a personal
>> story with 'I'd gone to New York last weekend and I saw my cousin and he told
>> me...'. It wasn't used for past tenses in general, just in that context.
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>:
>>
>>
>>> I heard someone claim that younger speakers of American English will use the
>>> past perfect ('I'd gone') instead of the simple past ('I went') in colloquial
>>> speech. Has anyone heard of this, and if so, does anyone know of any
>>> literature n it?
>>>
>>> thanks, John
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:52:28 -0400
> From: Denis Donovan <dmdonvan at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: [FUNKNET] query
> To: funknet at mailman.rice.edu
> Message-ID: <p06240804c8878808aab0@[10.0.1.2]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
> I'm interested in the origin and history of this Afro-American expression:
>
> "I brought you into this world; I can take you out."
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> =====================================================
> Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S.
> Director, EOCT Institute
>
> Medical Director, 1983 - 2006
> The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry
> St. Petersburg, Florida
>
> P.O Box 47576
> St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576
> 727-641-8905
> DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org
> =====================================================
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 06:42:06 +0300
> From: john at research.haifa.ac.il
> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] past perfect for past
> To: Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>
> Cc: "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>, "funknet at mailman.rice.edu"
> <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <1281498126.4c621c0eb1269 at webmail.haifa.ac.il>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yes, but to my knowledge it's more common for a past to develop from a present
> perfect rather than from a past perfect.
> John
>
>
>
> Quoting Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>:
>
>>
>> Maybe it's good to remember that the shift from "perfect" to "past" is
>> one of the most natural, wide-spread ways of getting past-tense marking. TG
>> =======
>>
>>
>>
>> john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>> > About 25 years ago I noticed this sort of this in the usage of speakers of
>> Black
>> > English. On closer analysis, I found that it was used particularly for
>> completed
>> > actions at the beginning of narrative sequences, e.g. starting a personal
>> > story with 'I'd gone to New York last weekend and I saw my cousin and he
>> told
>> > me...'. It wasn't used for past tenses in general, just in that context.
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Quoting "Moore, John" <moorej at ucsd.edu>:
>> >
>> >
>> >> I heard someone claim that younger speakers of American English will use
>> the
>> >> past perfect ('I'd gone') instead of the simple past ('I went') in
>> colloquial
>> >> speech. Has anyone heard of this, and if so, does anyone know of any
>> >> literature n it?
>> >>
>> >> thanks, John
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:31:25 +0200
> From: Elisabeth Engberg - Pedersen <eep at hum.ku.dk>
> Subject: [FUNKNET] Second call - The Third Conference of the
> Scandinavian Association for Language and Cognition
> To: funknet <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <E37C69EB-5217-463D-973A-5AF1477C63AE at hum.ku.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS for The Third Conference of the Scandinavian Association for Language and Cognition
>
> The Third Conference of the Scandinavian Association for Language and Cognition (SALC III) will take place at the University of Copenhagen, June 14-16th (3 days) 2011.
>
> Keynote speakers:
> ? Lawrence Barsalou, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia
> ? Per Durst-Andersen, Copenhagen Business School, Copenhagen, Denmark
> ? Rachel Giora, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel
> ? Marianne Gullberg, Lund University, Lund, Sweden
> ? Hannes Rakoczy, University of G?ttingen, Germany
> The conference includes, but is not limited to the following themes:
>
> ? Cognitive impairment and language use
> ? Language acquisition and cognition
> ? Language and cognitive development and evolution
> ? Language and consciousness
> ? Language and gesture
> ? Language change and cognition
> ? Language structure and cognition
> ? Language use and cognition
> ? Linguistic relativity
> ? Linguistic typology and cognition
> ? Psycholinguistic approaches to language and cognition
> ? Specific language impairment
> We now invite the submission of abstracts for paper or poster presentations. The deadline is December 1st 2010. Papers will be allocated 20 minutes plus 10 minutes for discussion. Posters will stay up for a day and be allocated to dedicated, timetabled sessions. The language of the conference is English.
>
> Abstracts of no more than 300 words (excluding references) should be sent by email as a Word attachment to SALC3 at hum.ku.dk by December 1st 2010 (subject: SALC III abstract). The document should contain presentation title, the abstract and preference for paper or poster presentation. Please DO NOT include information identifying the author(s) in the email attachment. Author(s) information including name, affiliation and email address(es) should be detailed in the body of the email. Notification of acceptance decisions will be communicated by February 1st 2011.
>
>
> Conference website: http://salc3.ku.dk/
> For details of SALC, see: http://www.salc-sssk.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 05:36:31 -0600
> From: Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>
> Subject: [FUNKNET] [Fwd: Re : Re: past perfect for past]
> To: Funknet <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <4C628B3F.9020100 at uoregon.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
>
> Submitted on behalf of Pablo Kirtchuk. TG
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 05:40:21 -0600
> From: Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>
> Subject: [FUNKNET] message from Pablo Kitchuk
> To: Funknet <funknet at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <4C628C25.1000402 at uoregon.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Submitting this on behalf of Pablo Kirchuk. TG
>
> ===========================================
>
>
> Hi Talmy, Hi guys,
>
> In Modern Aramaic, or Neo-Syriac, or whatever permutations of those names, perfect becomes pas with a shift from accusative to ergative. So in the tenses derived from the subjunctive (paradoxically, the unmarked mood, gramatically speaking) the 1st actant (argument, in the American tradition) is grammatical subject and the 2nd one is object, yielding a banal accusative structure characteristic of Semmitic as a whole as well as of older stages of Aramaic itself, while in the tenses built on the perfect, which became no more than a past tense for all purposes practical, the agent has a dative prefix and the whole is appended to the verb, erstwhile a past participle,. The patient is at the unmarked case ('nominative') and determines agreement, and is is there fore the verb's subject. If patient be definite, it is indexed in the verb as well.
> To resume, on one hand you have an erstwhile present (< active < imperfect) participle which gives the subjunctive from which are derived the present tense as well as the future and one past, all by means of preverbal particles and suffixed personal indices at the nominative, with an accusative behavior; on the other hand you have an erstwhile 'past' (< passive < perfect) participle from which is derived the unmarked past, with agent at the dative, an ergative behavior and a reverse word order, as expected.
> When pf > past, one should pay attention to the consequences as far as TAM, Diathesis, actantial-structure (ergative vs. accusative or split) and word-order are concerned, and not concentrate on the mere mechanical statement that pf > past. Saussure was not completely wrong: when he says that language is a system in which everything influences the whole, the guy knows what he's talking about, and this is a fair instance of that.
> Hereby attached is a paper on neo-Aramaic in this connection.
>
> Since I'm not as yet entitled to send collective messages to Funknert I trust, Tom, that you'll trasmit this message to whoever you think is concerned, if you deem it worthwhile.
>
> Pablo
>
>
>
>
> End of FUNKNET Digest, Vol 83, Issue 2
> **************************************
>
More information about the Funknet
mailing list