A poet slips

[A. Katz]

John,

Well, at least I'm glad you realize that one hundred years ago, and 
possibly even more recently, they did not think of themselves as Arabs.
I still wonder whether among themselves they say "Arabs". Isn't there 
another word? If any of them tried to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, I doubt 
very much they'd be called "Arabs." For that matter, what do Jordanians 
call non-Jewish Israelis?

The biggest obstacle to allowing for integration in the schools is not the 
Palestinian population -- it's those among the Israelis who adopt a "Jews 
first" attitude.

    --Aya

http://hubpages.com/hub/My-Grandfathers-Voice-Recordings-of-Benzion-Katz


On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:

> Aya,
> I ask them constantly if they think they are Arabs (60% of my students
> are Arabic speakers and this is a central topic of many classes that I teach)
> and almost without exception they do. The only exceptions are some Druze
> (mostly males) and most Maronites. I am aware that 100 years ago Arabic
> speakers living in this area did not consider themselves to be Arabs (except
> for the Bedouins), but the situation has completely changed.
>
> It is totally unrealistic to put Israeli Arabs as a group into Hebrew-speaking
> schools. No one wants it, not the Jews and not the Arabs. There are a tiny
> number of Arabs who for one reason or another send their children to
> Hebrew-speaking schools (for example the author Sayed Kashua) but this
> is insignificant.
>
> I don't know what the situation was when you were a child, and I don't know
> about the situation among religious Jews, but secular Jewish children do not
> learn to read by reading Genesis today. They learn to read with secular texts
> in 1st grade and go on to the Bible in 2nd grade, but far from learning to
> read by reading the Bible, teachers have to explain what's written in the
> Bible to the students. NO ONE can understand it without an explanation from the
> teacher or their parents.
>
> Ron--I agree with everything you say except that I believe that the radical
> difference between spoken and written Arabic definitely is a serious problem
> for literacy. I would not be so quick to dismiss the effect of the Arabic
> writing system--we had a conference on this topic in Haifa in May and the
> general consensus of people who sounded like they knew what they were talking
> about was that it is a significant problem-- but they hadn't done
> cross-linguistic research and this isn't something I know enough about to have
> strong opinions one way or the other. Also, the usage of written colloquial
> Arabic is basically universal among all Israeli Arabs under the age of 25 who
> have a cellular phone.
> This is definitely not just a privileged section of the population, it's most
> people of the relevant age group.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "A. Katz" <amnfn at well.com>:
>
>> John,
>>
>> These people you speak of are not Arabs. Some of them are Moslem and they
>> read the Quran in the original. Some of them are not Moslem. All of them
>> speak a local dialect of Arabic. Ask them sometimes if they think they are
>> Arabs.
>>
>> Trying to turn every dialect into a separate language with a separate
>> writing system is a way to try to disunite people. But a common language,
>> however differently it is pronounced, unites disparate people. Australians
>> and Cockneys and Indians and Americans speak sometimes mutually
>> unintelligible versions of English. Using the same writing system and
>> the same classic texts unites them.
>>
>> Instead of telling people they should magnify every difference, why not
>> offer to share your language with them? Hebrew could be a uniting factor
>> if spoken in all Israeli schools.
>>
>>      --Aya
>>
>> http://hubpages.com/hub/ISRAEL-The-Two-Halves-of-the-Nation
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>>
>>> Learning the classical language is like pulling teeth for Arabs kids also.
>> They
>>> just can't publicly say it because that would make them bad Arabs. It's
>> just
>>> ridiculous. I have an even better plan for the Jewish kids--teach them to
>> use
>>> the written version of the spoken language which Arab kids are using for
>>> Facebook. That's how kids make friends these days anyway.
>>> Best wishes,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I learned to read Arabic on the kibbutz (Maabarot) as a child, our
>>>> textbook was of written COLLOQUIAL Falastini Arabic. We never got to
>>>> Classical (after 1949 things changed...).  That book may still exist,
>>>> you might track it down. It was easy, a cinch really. I concluded it was
>>>> really just Hebrew with a few trivial transformations in Phonology &
>>>> Grammar. (I was 7 years old & a bit naive then). Then 7 years ago I sat
>>>> on a few sessions of a faculty study group at UO who were trying to
>>>> learn Arabic (post 9/11...)--from a Classical Koranic grammar book. Boy,
>>>> it was like pullin' teeth. But Leonard Bloomfield said it already, and
>>>> well, in 1939 (or was it 1943?).
>>>> Cheers,  TG
>>>>
>>>> ==============
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>>>>> Tom,
>>>>> I've been trying for several years to get Israeli Arabs and Jews to
>>>> seriously
>>>>> consider the possibility of educating Israeli Arabs in a written version
>> of
>>>>> their spoken language, as you suggest, at least through 3rd grade. I can
>>>> send
>>>>> you some things I've written on this topic, with a lot of
>> cross-linguistic
>>>>> data. But thus far, it isn't working. As with most aspects of 'the
>>>> situation'
>>>>> here, politically active Arabs think that the solution is to pursue the
>>>> same
>>>>> self-destructive strategy which they've been following for almost a
>> century
>>>> but
>>>>> with even more vigor and steadfastness (e.g. Masalha points the blame at
>>>> the
>>>>> Arab media because they do not 'provide the linguistic richness of formal
>>>>> Arabic') while Jews are basically content to let the Arabs stew in their
>>>> own
>>>>> juices so that they can reap the benefits. There may, however, be hope
>> for
>>>> the
>>>>> future in the form of the radically increased usage of written forms of
>>>>> colloquial Arabic dialects in electronic media such as Facebook, blogs,
>>>> emails,
>>>>> etc., by Arabic speakers below the age of 30, which will soon come to
>>>> seriously
>>>>> threaten the status of classical Arabic in the same way that the
>> invention
>>>> of
>>>>> the printing press overturned the linguistic hierarchy in Western Europe
>> by
>>>>> overthrowing Latin. I'm working on this too. We'll see what happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> I realize that Masalha as well as the researchers he referred to don't
>>>>> necessarily know what they're talking about regarding the brain. But the
>>>>> general point is still potentially significant--that the connected script
>>>> which
>>>>> Arabic uses as well as the multiple forms which many Arabic letters have
>>>> may be
>>>>> a significant obstacle to literacy, however this may be related to
>>>> processes in
>>>>> the brain.
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>                                       A GREAT POET CAN STILL GET IT
>> WRONG
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          I  came  to know of Salman Masalha ("Arabs, speak Hebrew!",
>>>>>> Haaretz/English, International  Herald  Tribune  9-27-10) accidentally
>>>>>> by stumbling a on his truly  great quote:
>>>>>>                "All fixed identities are imposed from the outside.
>>>>>>                  Whoever  has a clear identity knows it can assume
>>>>>> multiple forms".
>>>>>> In the context  of Palestine/Israel, what a breath of  fresh, rare
>>>>>> clarity.  Still, like the rest of us mortals, a  great poet can on
>>>>>> occasion get it wrong  too, and Mr. Masalha--may he be forgiven; pun
>>>>>> intended--surely got only one third of the story right. At first, he was
>>>>>> led astray be the academic researchers he cited, who claimed that the
>>>>>> lagging reading skills of  Israeli-Arab students is correlated  to
>>>>>> lagging  R-hemisphere  activity,  then explained this neurological lag
>>>>>> by suggesting that the Arab script requires more contextual analysis.
>>>>>> But  it is the R-hemisphere of the human cortex that is more context
>>>>>> oriented, less automated. If Arab-reading students required more
>>>>>> contextual labor, it should have been registered as a higher
>>>>>> R-hemisphere activity, not lower.
>>>>>>           Works by M. Posner, S. Petersen, M. Raichle and S. Dahane,
>>>>>> among  many others, have established  beyond  reasonable  doubt  that
>>>>>> written words in all languages (English, Mandarin, Hindi, Amharic,
>>>>>> Hebrew, Arabic, etc.) are  decoded automatically in an L-hemisphere
>>>>>> module on the boundary of the occipital and temporal lobes (just past
>>>>>> Brodman's Area 19), along the ventral visual object-recognition
>>>>>> 'stream'  that flows  from the back to the front of the L-cortex. And
>>>>>> the L-cortex is in general responsible for  the more automated--less
>>>>>> context-dependent--processing of language (as  well as visual, motor and
>>>>>> other skills). The visual word-recognition module is,  in turn,
>>>>>> recruited  from  the pre-existing  visual object-recognition
>>>>>> ventral-stream  module. A considerable amount of life-time practice and
>>>>>> repetition is required to affect this late-cultural adaptation. The
>>>>>> human brain is not (yet) genetically configured  at birth for
>>>>>> visual-word recognition, only for visual-object recognition. A similar
>>>>>> cultural adaptation, this one for math, has been shown for (Dahaene &
>>>>>> Cohen, 2007; see recent article in The New Yorker by Oliver Sachs)
>>>>>> in the L-pareita lobe, an area originally configured for analysis of
>>>>>> object-location in space.
>>>>>>               Mr. Masalha  then, on his own, points out to a more
>>>>>> plausible right answer: Arab students, in Israel as well as all over the
>>>>>> Arab world, are  not  taught literacy in  their native language
>>>>>> (Falastini, Maghrebi, Masri, Yemeni, etc.), but in a frozen literary
>>>>>> instrument harking back 1,400  years or more. That is, in a foreign
>>>>>> language. The discrepancy would be  just as great  if  Israeli kids were
>>>>>> taught  their Hebrew literacy  first in the language of Genesis; or if
>>>>>> French  students  were taught literacy  first in the language of  La
>>>>>> Chançon de Roland, Guilhome de Machaut, or Chrê tien de Troyes. Or
>>>>>> English-speaking  kids in the language  of Beowolf. As far as my frail
>>>>>> guessing powers go,  remedying the situation would be much easier by
>>>>>> combining two well-known verities of second language acquisition: (a)
>>>>>> Teach them  both early, together--'co-ordinated bilingualism'. And (b),
>>>>>> teach literacy first in the student's spoken native language; only then
>>>>>> gradually 'stretch' it to more literary genres.  This method, bhy the
>>>>>> way,  was suggested in the late 1930's by no other than  L. Bloomfield,
>>>>>> in a book outlining a  'phonics-first ' literacy  program for native
>>>>>> English speakers. Rather than depriving Israeli-Arab students of
>>>>>> literacy in their own--equally glorious--native language, just teach
>>>>>> them smart.
>>>>>>                For  his last culprit, the presumed--tho  hardly
>>>>>> unique--vulgarity  of Arab media, Mr. Masalha lapses into well
>>>>>> recognized  prejudices of  the educated classes. While readily endorsing
>>>>>> his aesthetic sentiments about modern media, I would still like to point
>>>>>> out that the 'vulgar' genre is  much closer to the Arab students'
>>>>>> spoken native language, and  if anything should facilitate the easier
>>>>>> initial acquisition of  native-language literacy. Respectuosamente,
>>>>>> ma'-salaam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                                                       T. Givón
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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