A poet slips

[Cameron, Richard]

John's point about "that the people called 'Israeli Arabs' are
not considered to be Israelis by Israelis and they are not considered to be
Arabs by Arabs." may (I say, may)  have some curious parallels among
Puerto Ricans and Mexicans in the States in their relationships with those
countries as they will claim that back home they are called Americanos but
in the States they are not. The old "Ni de aqui, ni de alla." Not from
here, not from there. - Richard Cameron

On Thu, September 30, 2010 10:26 am, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
> Yes, actually I thought more and there is some truth to what you said. It
> seems
> that at a psychological level Arabs in other countries don't consider them
> to
> be 'real Arabs'. A student of mine who went to the Egyptian national
> museum in
> Cairo saw that there were radically different entry fees posted for
> 'Arabs' and
> 'non-Arabs'. He explained in his Levantine accent that he was an Arab (in
> fact
> he was a Druze who had served in the Israeli Army, but they had no way of
> knowing that) and attempted to pay the lower 'Arab' fee. The tickettaker
> asked
> to see his passport and when he saw that
> it was from Israel informed him that he was not an Arab and would have to
> pay
> the higher 'non-Arab' fee. I have told this story to many of my Israeli
> Arab
> students and not a single one has even expressed surprise--they completely
> expect such treatment. When I suggest that this means that they are not
> regarded as being real Arabs by Arabs from other countries, they admit
> that
> this seems to be true--but they still regard themselves as being Arabs. I
> then
> sum up the situation by saying that the people called 'Israeli Arabs' are
> not
> considered to be Israelis by Israelis and they are not considered to be
> Arabs
> by Arabs.
> It's complicated...
>
> With regard to the obstacles to integration, it really is true that
> neither side
> wants integration if this threatens their distinctive identities. In no
> sense
> can it be said that the Jewish side rejects assimilation more than the
> Arab
> side. I remember one class in which a Christian Arab woman reported
> temporarily
> sending her child to a Jewish kindergarten because it was the most
> convenient
> one--but when the child came home one day and insisted on lighting candles
> on
> Friday evening, the parents realized that this was too much and they
> needed
> another solution. Everyone in the class, Jews and Arabs, recognized
> this--except for an American visiting scholar who said 'What's the
> problem,
> it's cute!'. Everyone looked at him like he'd landed from outer space. The
> difference is more that the Arab side wants EQUALITY, but (contrary to
> what
> Americans generally think) that isn't the same thing as integration.
>
> John
>
>
>
> Quoting "A. Katz" <amnfn at well.com>:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Well, at least I'm glad you realize that one hundred years ago, and
>> possibly even more recently, they did not think of themselves as Arabs.
>> I still wonder whether among themselves they say "Arabs". Isn't there
>> another word? If any of them tried to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, I doubt
>> very much they'd be called "Arabs." For that matter, what do Jordanians
>> call non-Jewish Israelis?
>>
>> The biggest obstacle to allowing for integration in the schools is not
>> the
>> Palestinian population -- it's those among the Israelis who adopt a
>> "Jews
>> first" attitude.
>>
>>     --Aya
>>
>> http://hubpages.com/hub/My-Grandfathers-Voice-Recordings-of-Benzion-Katz
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>>
>> > Aya,
>> > I ask them constantly if they think they are Arabs (60% of my students
>> > are Arabic speakers and this is a central topic of many classes that I
>> teach)
>> > and almost without exception they do. The only exceptions are some
>> Druze
>> > (mostly males) and most Maronites. I am aware that 100 years ago
>> Arabic
>> > speakers living in this area did not consider themselves to be Arabs
>> (except
>> > for the Bedouins), but the situation has completely changed.
>> >
>> > It is totally unrealistic to put Israeli Arabs as a group into
>> Hebrew-speaking
>> > schools. No one wants it, not the Jews and not the Arabs. There are a
>> tiny
>> > number of Arabs who for one reason or another send their children to
>> > Hebrew-speaking schools (for example the author Sayed Kashua) but this
>> > is insignificant.
>> >
>> > I don't know what the situation was when you were a child, and I don't
>> know
>> > about the situation among religious Jews, but secular Jewish children
>> do
>> not
>> > learn to read by reading Genesis today. They learn to read with
>> secular
>> texts
>> > in 1st grade and go on to the Bible in 2nd grade, but far from
>> learning to
>> > read by reading the Bible, teachers have to explain what's written in
>> the
>> > Bible to the students. NO ONE can understand it without an explanation
>> from
>> the
>> > teacher or their parents.
>> >
>> > Ron--I agree with everything you say except that I believe that the
>> radical
>> > difference between spoken and written Arabic definitely is a serious
>> problem
>> > for literacy. I would not be so quick to dismiss the effect of the
>> Arabic
>> > writing system--we had a conference on this topic in Haifa in May and
>> the
>> > general consensus of people who sounded like they knew what they were
>> talking
>> > about was that it is a significant problem-- but they hadn't done
>> > cross-linguistic research and this isn't something I know enough about
>> to
>> have
>> > strong opinions one way or the other. Also, the usage of written
>> colloquial
>> > Arabic is basically universal among all Israeli Arabs under the age of
>> 25
>> who
>> > have a cellular phone.
>> > This is definitely not just a privileged section of the population,
>> it's
>> most
>> > people of the relevant age group.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Quoting "A. Katz" <amnfn at well.com>:
>> >
>> >> John,
>> >>
>> >> These people you speak of are not Arabs. Some of them are Moslem and
>> they
>> >> read the Quran in the original. Some of them are not Moslem. All of
>> them
>> >> speak a local dialect of Arabic. Ask them sometimes if they think
>> they are
>> >> Arabs.
>> >>
>> >> Trying to turn every dialect into a separate language with a separate
>> >> writing system is a way to try to disunite people. But a common
>> language,
>> >> however differently it is pronounced, unites disparate people.
>> Australians
>> >> and Cockneys and Indians and Americans speak sometimes mutually
>> >> unintelligible versions of English. Using the same writing system and
>> >> the same classic texts unites them.
>> >>
>> >> Instead of telling people they should magnify every difference, why
>> not
>> >> offer to share your language with them? Hebrew could be a uniting
>> factor
>> >> if spoken in all Israeli schools.
>> >>
>> >>      --Aya
>> >>
>> >> http://hubpages.com/hub/ISRAEL-The-Two-Halves-of-the-Nation
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Learning the classical language is like pulling teeth for Arabs kids
>> also.
>> >> They
>> >>> just can't publicly say it because that would make them bad Arabs.
>> It's
>> >> just
>> >>> ridiculous. I have an even better plan for the Jewish kids--teach
>> them to
>> >> use
>> >>> the written version of the spoken language which Arab kids are using
>> for
>> >>> Facebook. That's how kids make friends these days anyway.
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>> John
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Quoting Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When I learned to read Arabic on the kibbutz (Maabarot) as a child,
>> our
>> >>>> textbook was of written COLLOQUIAL Falastini Arabic. We never got
>> to
>> >>>> Classical (after 1949 things changed...).  That book may still
>> exist,
>> >>>> you might track it down. It was easy, a cinch really. I concluded
>> it was
>> >>>> really just Hebrew with a few trivial transformations in Phonology
>> &
>> >>>> Grammar. (I was 7 years old & a bit naive then). Then 7 years ago I
>> sat
>> >>>> on a few sessions of a faculty study group at UO who were trying to
>> >>>> learn Arabic (post 9/11...)--from a Classical Koranic grammar book.
>> Boy,
>> >>>> it was like pullin' teeth. But Leonard Bloomfield said it already,
>> and
>> >>>> well, in 1939 (or was it 1943?).
>> >>>> Cheers,  TG
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ==============
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> john at research.haifa.ac.il wrote:
>> >>>>> Tom,
>> >>>>> I've been trying for several years to get Israeli Arabs and Jews
>> to
>> >>>> seriously
>> >>>>> consider the possibility of educating Israeli Arabs in a written
>> version
>> >> of
>> >>>>> their spoken language, as you suggest, at least through 3rd grade.
>> I
>> can
>> >>>> send
>> >>>>> you some things I've written on this topic, with a lot of
>> >> cross-linguistic
>> >>>>> data. But thus far, it isn't working. As with most aspects of 'the
>> >>>> situation'
>> >>>>> here, politically active Arabs think that the solution is to
>> pursue the
>> >>>> same
>> >>>>> self-destructive strategy which they've been following for almost
>> a
>> >> century
>> >>>> but
>> >>>>> with even more vigor and steadfastness (e.g. Masalha points the
>> blame
>> at
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> Arab media because they do not 'provide the linguistic richness of
>> formal
>> >>>>> Arabic') while Jews are basically content to let the Arabs stew in
>> their
>> >>>> own
>> >>>>> juices so that they can reap the benefits. There may, however, be
>> hope
>> >> for
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> future in the form of the radically increased usage of written
>> forms of
>> >>>>> colloquial Arabic dialects in electronic media such as Facebook,
>> blogs,
>> >>>> emails,
>> >>>>> etc., by Arabic speakers below the age of 30, which will soon come
>> to
>> >>>> seriously
>> >>>>> threaten the status of classical Arabic in the same way that the
>> >> invention
>> >>>> of
>> >>>>> the printing press overturned the linguistic hierarchy in Western
>> Europe
>> >> by
>> >>>>> overthrowing Latin. I'm working on this too. We'll see what
>> happens.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I realize that Masalha as well as the researchers he referred to
>> don't
>> >>>>> necessarily know what they're talking about regarding the brain.
>> But
>> the
>> >>>>> general point is still potentially significant--that the connected
>> script
>> >>>> which
>> >>>>> Arabic uses as well as the multiple forms which many Arabic
>> letters
>> have
>> >>>> may be
>> >>>>> a significant obstacle to literacy, however this may be related to
>> >>>> processes in
>> >>>>> the brain.
>> >>>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>> John
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Quoting Tom Givon <tgivon at uoregon.edu>:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>                                       A GREAT POET CAN STILL GET
>> IT
>> >> WRONG
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>          I  came  to know of Salman Masalha ("Arabs, speak
>> Hebrew!",
>> >>>>>> Haaretz/English, International  Herald  Tribune  9-27-10)
>> accidentally
>> >>>>>> by stumbling a on his truly  great quote:
>> >>>>>>                "All fixed identities are imposed from the
>> outside.
>> >>>>>>                  Whoever  has a clear identity knows it can
>> assume
>> >>>>>> multiple forms".
>> >>>>>> In the context  of Palestine/Israel, what a breath of  fresh,
>> rare
>> >>>>>> clarity.  Still, like the rest of us mortals, a  great poet can
>> on
>> >>>>>> occasion get it wrong  too, and Mr. Masalha--may he be forgiven;
>> pun
>> >>>>>> intended--surely got only one third of the story right. At first,
>> he
>> was
>> >>>>>> led astray be the academic researchers he cited, who claimed that
>> the
>> >>>>>> lagging reading skills of  Israeli-Arab students is correlated
>> to
>> >>>>>> lagging  R-hemisphere  activity,  then explained this
>> neurological lag
>> >>>>>> by suggesting that the Arab script requires more contextual
>> analysis.
>> >>>>>> But  it is the R-hemisphere of the human cortex that is more
>> context
>> >>>>>> oriented, less automated. If Arab-reading students required more
>> >>>>>> contextual labor, it should have been registered as a higher
>> >>>>>> R-hemisphere activity, not lower.
>> >>>>>>           Works by M. Posner, S. Petersen, M. Raichle and S.
>> Dahane,
>> >>>>>> among  many others, have established  beyond  reasonable  doubt
>> that
>> >>>>>> written words in all languages (English, Mandarin, Hindi,
>> Amharic,
>> >>>>>> Hebrew, Arabic, etc.) are  decoded automatically in an
>> L-hemisphere
>> >>>>>> module on the boundary of the occipital and temporal lobes (just
>> past
>> >>>>>> Brodman's Area 19), along the ventral visual object-recognition
>> >>>>>> 'stream'  that flows  from the back to the front of the L-cortex.
>> And
>> >>>>>> the L-cortex is in general responsible for  the more
>> automated--less
>> >>>>>> context-dependent--processing of language (as  well as visual,
>> motor
>> and
>> >>>>>> other skills). The visual word-recognition module is,  in turn,
>> >>>>>> recruited  from  the pre-existing  visual object-recognition
>> >>>>>> ventral-stream  module. A considerable amount of life-time
>> practice
>> and
>> >>>>>> repetition is required to affect this late-cultural adaptation.
>> The
>> >>>>>> human brain is not (yet) genetically configured  at birth for
>> >>>>>> visual-word recognition, only for visual-object recognition. A
>> similar
>> >>>>>> cultural adaptation, this one for math, has been shown for
>> (Dahaene &
>> >>>>>> Cohen, 2007; see recent article in The New Yorker by Oliver
>> Sachs)
>> >>>>>> in the L-pareita lobe, an area originally configured for analysis
>> of
>> >>>>>> object-location in space.
>> >>>>>>               Mr. Masalha  then, on his own, points out to a more
>> >>>>>> plausible right answer: Arab students, in Israel as well as all
>> over
>> the
>> >>>>>> Arab world, are  not  taught literacy in  their native language
>> >>>>>> (Falastini, Maghrebi, Masri, Yemeni, etc.), but in a frozen
>> literary
>> >>>>>> instrument harking back 1,400  years or more. That is, in a
>> foreign
>> >>>>>> language. The discrepancy would be  just as great  if  Israeli
>> kids
>> were
>> >>>>>> taught  their Hebrew literacy  first in the language of Genesis;
>> or if
>> >>>>>> French  students  were taught literacy  first in the language of
>> La
>> >>>>>> Chançon de Roland, Guilhome de Machaut, or Chrê tien de Troyes.
>> Or
>> >>>>>> English-speaking  kids in the language  of Beowolf. As far as my
>> frail
>> >>>>>> guessing powers go,  remedying the situation would be much easier
>> by
>> >>>>>> combining two well-known verities of second language acquisition:
>> (a)
>> >>>>>> Teach them  both early, together--'co-ordinated bilingualism'.
>> And
>> (b),
>> >>>>>> teach literacy first in the student's spoken native language;
>> only
>> then
>> >>>>>> gradually 'stretch' it to more literary genres.  This method, bhy
>> the
>> >>>>>> way,  was suggested in the late 1930's by no other than  L.
>> Bloomfield,
>> >>>>>> in a book outlining a  'phonics-first ' literacy  program for
>> native
>> >>>>>> English speakers. Rather than depriving Israeli-Arab students of
>> >>>>>> literacy in their own--equally glorious--native language, just
>> teach
>> >>>>>> them smart.
>> >>>>>>                For  his last culprit, the presumed--tho  hardly
>> >>>>>> unique--vulgarity  of Arab media, Mr. Masalha lapses into well
>> >>>>>> recognized  prejudices of  the educated classes. While readily
>> endorsing
>> >>>>>> his aesthetic sentiments about modern media, I would still like
>> to
>> point
>> >>>>>> out that the 'vulgar' genre is  much closer to the Arab students'
>> >>>>>> spoken native language, and  if anything should facilitate the
>> easier
>> >>>>>> initial acquisition of  native-language literacy.
>> Respectuosamente,
>> >>>>>> ma'-salaam,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>                                                       T. Givón
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa
>> University
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa
>> University
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa
>> University
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Webmail Program of Haifa University
>
>