<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div>Valentina, thanks for the references below and for making the point about class and culture differences wrt "strong, direct" language use. The points you raise points about cross-cultural attitudes and uses of 'foul' language by and to children would make for an interesting discussion.</div><div><br></div><div>In this film, I think the frame in which the child's language was used matters, at least to my ears. It wasn't teasing or playful, but serious. It felt like there was a thin border between pretend play and reality.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, as I think about how relevant socio-economic class is to who might typically use the sort of language used in the film, I feel cautious about ascribing the usage in the film predominately to the working class -- in the context of abuse. It may be that abuse is done verbally with words that are associated with toughness and physicality, no matter which socio-economic class or culture the abuser is native to and how restricted the rules about "taboo" talk are in that class and culture. In this view, being an abuser would trump culture/class-related language use. In fact, abuse could open the floodgates of talk that is normally taboo in other circumstances.</div><div><br></div><div>This may be part of the concern about this child's talk -- how well, and long, she does it. She is mirroring the (adult) use of language so skillfully, and coordinating it so smoothly and believably with physical abuse. She's got the details down pat. It feels more than a "childish" reenactment.</div><div>Amy</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On May 2, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Valentina Pagliai wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">I am Italian, and I too do not feel I can speak for all Italians. But as a Tuscan of working class background, I can say the words used by the girl actor did not bother me. Maybe we have a different upbringing. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Being direct, argumentative and coming out strong is a positive thing and children are exposed to and learn to use fighting words early.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">But even in the US there are studies showing that the middle class ideal of avoiding foul language esp. in front of children are not necessarily shared by everybody.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Working class mothers and minorities may have different views, as in the following two articles.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Miller, Peggy 1986. </span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">“Teasing as Language Socialization and Verbal Play in a White Working-Class Community.”</span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">In B Schieffelin & E. Ochs (Eds.)</span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Language and Socialization Across Cultures.</span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.</span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">(Pp. 51-79).</span></font></div><div> <!--StartFragment--><span style=""><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Eisenberg, Ann 1986.</span></font><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">“Teasing: Verbal Play in Two Mexicano Homes.” In B Schieffelin & E. Ochs (eds.) Language and Socialization Across Cultures. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (Pp. 199-212)</span></font></span><!--EndFragment--><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Also, Jennifer Reynolds has done studies on Guatemalan Mayan children teasing each other and learning fighting words, and the ideologies around the definition of "children" and "children in need of protection".</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">As for the movie, I completely I agree with Amy's analysis. </span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">For me, I found the movie kind of boring, nothing new, the usual stuff. I was hoping for some parody or turnabout at the end but it did not come. I thought it could have been done by a teenager for a classroom project. Not really a powerful filmaker. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">But itube itself is an interesting phenomenon, to a degree empowering.</span></font></div><div><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Valentina Pagliai</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Oberlin College</span></font></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br><div><div>On May 1, 2008, at 10:52 PM, Amy Sheldon wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> <div>I thought about the consequences to the young girl too and found it very troubling. The possible damage to the child actor became a preoccupation in my reaction to the film.</div><div>Is that preoccupation the effect the film maker was after? I doubt it.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems that there's a means justifies the end mentality in the film that makes the possible harm to the child *actor* become an issue, when it should not be.</div><div><br></div><div>What is the artistry of this film? It re-enacts real life in a *raw* way. Is there no way to give the message about the conscription of onlookers to violence to become violent themselves? Who is the audience...children? battered women/persons? It's not a new message either.</div><div><br></div><div>So I think there's a side story here about the wisdom or aesthetics of film maker's over use of audience shock treatment to make the point.</div><div>Would the next step be to have the battering become a real event we all are asked to watch for the redeeming value of realizing battering is bad? </div><div><br></div><div>Should horrible events be told about in an aesthetic frame? This is a discussion that has taken place wrt if and how to contextualize and treat the Holocaust (and other horrific events) in an artistic frame, so that they can be understood and not forgotten. </div><div>Amy Sheldon</div><div><br></div><div><div>On May 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Valentina Pagliai wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Well,</div>The girl seemed to be having a lot of fun at it. And I suppose I would prefer an awareness of the existence of family violence to a girl misleaded into believing that certain things don't exist (until it happens to them). I feel that it is really cultural, for lack of a better word, the American (but not all Americans) tendency to hide stuff from children. Personally, I feel it is better to make children aware as soon as possible of sexism and oppression, so they can learn to defend themselves.<div>That's my two cents.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Valentina Pagliai</div><div>Oberlin College</div><div><br><div><br><div><div>On May 1, 2008, at 9:04 PM, Campbell, Heather wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">I must say, I agree with your concerns. Powerful film, but as an early childhood educator, I am extremely conflicted about this. There was a duty of care towards the wellbeing of the young child acting in this film, and I wonder if the possible benefits deriving from the film (that is, raising awareness of domestic violence and its effect upon children) justify the potential harm inflicted upon the child involved.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Heather Campbell<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> International Gender and Language Association [<a href="mailto:GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">mailto:GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sarah Wagner<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, 2 May 2008 9:45 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">All I can think is, what about this young "actor" who is doing this? What is she thinking as she says all of these horrible things? You can't, even in an acting context, make this sound like "pretend" can you? It's an incredible film, unbelievable (and incredibly important message of course), but I'm so conflicted about the reality of making it.<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal">----- Original Message ----<br> From: Megan Crowhurst <<a href="mailto:mcrowhurst@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU">mcrowhurst@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU</a>><br> To: <a href="mailto:GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">GALA-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br> Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 4:09:43 PM<br> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies<br> <br> Well, there's a frighteningly powerful message <br> about how kids internalize and learn to reproduce <br> domestic partner abuse. I'm forwarding this to <br> our SafePlace volunteer co-ordinator...<br> <br> <br> At 10:25 PM +0200 5/1/08, Goretty Robles Fernández wrote:<br> >I'm speechless.<br> ><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/336489/papas_y_mamas_daddies_mummies/" target="_blank">http://www.metacafe.com/watch/336489/papas_y_mamas_daddies_mummies/</a><br> <br> <br> -- <br> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br> Megan J. Crowhurst, Ph.D.<br> Associate Professor<br> <br> Graduate Advisor, Linguistics<br> All advising email should go to <a href="mailto:megancrowhurst@gmail.com">megancrowhurst@gmail.com</a><br> <br> Snail mail address:<br> <br> The University of Texas at Austin<br> Dr. Crowhurst<br> Department of Linguistics<br> 1 University Station B5100<br> Austin, TX 78712-5100<br> USA<br> <br> Phone: 512-471-1701<br> Fax: 512-471-4340<br> <br> My home page: <a href="http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Ecrowhurs/index.html" target="_blank">http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~crowhurs/index.html</a><br> Department home page: <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/linguistics/" target="_blank">http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/linguistics/</a><br> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"> <hr size="1" width="100%" align="center"> </div><p class="MsoNormal">Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20">Try it now.</a><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>