[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Bavaria

[cstrohmier at YAHOO.COM]

Hi Dirk,
	I agree:  The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians 
are a fascinating topic.  Thank you for clarifying how the Langobards 
fit in:  I had misunderstood what you meant.  (I took you to mean 
that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the 
Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and that 
the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.)  An imigration of 
Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from Italy, 
especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation" 
and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476 by 
Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic 
there.)  This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a 
complicated puzzle.  (I'm still pondering the significance of 
Scheuerer's interesting article.)
	I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning 
of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it 
seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date of 
A.D. 520.  Is there some specific historical event underlying this 
date?  In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of encyclopedia 
dates:  A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520.  (I believe one of these two 
sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.)  The earliest 
arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning of 
Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine 
region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in 
mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible 
arrival date.  There must be some historical references to the 
Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of.  The date A.D. 
520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the foundation 
date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic 
Kingdom.  It would be interesting to know what these two dates refer 
to.
Sincerely yours,
Cory

P.S.
	I need to make two clarifications.  In my last posting, I 
included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian 
Tyrol.  The word "Teutonizing"  has several possible meanings:  The 
author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous.  I take 
it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it 
became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.  In 
another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and 
Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of  Old 
Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an 
explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern 
German; two more examples of this would be:  "Das Hildebrandslied" 
(which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low" 
German "Der Heliand".  I believe there are also smaller fragments 
such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German 
influences.  No doubt there are more examples.



--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> Hi Cory,
> 
> there is lots of interesting material here and I will need some 
time 
> to digest that all. However, it strikes me that there is one 
> major mis-understanding. 
> 
> When I said that the first Bajuvari, i.e. 'the men of Baia' could 
have 
> been Langobards I did not mean Langobards from Italy. By that time 
> (perhaps the first half of the 5th century, and earlier) the 
> Langobards were situated in the area of Bohemia (i.e. Baia). I 
believe 
> that Scheurer is right in the following article, where he shows on 
the 
> basis of archaeological evidence that the first Bajuvarii arrived 
> around 400AD in the area of Straubing, Althmuehltal etc. coming 
from 
> Bohemia. 
> 
> http://www.bingo-ev.de/~ks451/archaeol/kemath01.htm
> 
> The people, or at least one of the peoples, who had just arrived in 
> Bohemia were the Langobards. Scheurer argues that the first 
Germanic 
> settlers were attracted to the area by the prospect of Roman 
military 
> service and they started to settle at a time when the area was 
still 
> part of the Roman empire. These people may have been formed into a 
> 'proper' tribe of Bajuvari under the influence of the Ostrogoths in 
> the late 5th century. 
> 
> Scheuerer writes: "Dagegen konnte man über die modisch
beeinflußten
> Gewandfibeln der Zeit Importe oder einen Zuzug neuer Siedler aus 
> Thüringen oder Franken, von den Alamannen, Langobarden, Ostgoten 
oder 
> Burgundern gut nachweisen." (... imports or in-migration of 
settlers 
> from Thuringia, the Franks, Alamanns, Langobards, Ostrogoths and 
> Burgundians can be well demonstrated)
> 
> 
> cheers
> Dirk
> 
> PS Did you know that Bavaria is the oldest state in Europe; that 
has 
> been in uninterrupted existence since about 520AD. At least that is 
> what the Bavarians say;-)
> 
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at y..., cstrohmier at y... wrote:
> > Hi Dirk,
> > 	Thanks for the information; you've given me some new ideas to 
> > think about and some areas to explore.  I think your idea about 
the 
> > six leading houses of Bavaria is very interesting, and it merits 
> > further investigation.
> > 	I'm not familiar with the Thuringian Kingdom.  Awhile back 
> > you sent to Gothic-List an interesting report about an East 
Germanic 
> > castle in Thuringia called Funkenburg and about East Germanic 
> > settlements stretching from Silesia to Hesse; would these be 
> > connected with a possible immigration from Thuringia to Bavaria?
> > 	 The Langobards are an interesting people.  I have read that 
> > their king wore a crown called the Iron Crown, which was trimmed 
in 
> > gold, and which contained one of the iron nails used to crucify 
> > Christ.  The Langobards connection with the Bavarians is also 
> > interesting, but I am very skeptical about the idea that they 
were 
> > the first Bavarians.
> > 	The Tyrol is a part of Austria in the Bavarian speech 
> > region.  Concerning the Tyrol, "Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia" 
> > says:  "During Roman Empire times, it was the province of 
Raetia.  
> In 
> > the 5th century the Ostrogoths Teutonized the northern part, 
while 
> > the Teutonic Langobards (Lombards) who invaded the southern part 
> > became Romanized.  Thus the Tyrol early acquired its dual 
character" 
> > (volume 14, page 232b).  The same encyclopedia says of Lombardy:  
> "It 
> > takes its name from the barbarian Lombard hordes who overran it 
in 
> > the 6th century.  These people were the last Germanic invaders of 
> > Italy.  They pressed down from the north in A.D. 568 within 15 
years 
> > after the emperor Justinian had expelled the East Goths" (volume 
8, 
> > page 279).  These quotes are important for several reasons.
> > 	The first quote shows that the Ostrogoths did "Teutonize" at 
> > least part of the Bavarian speech region long before the southern 
> > part of the Ostrogothic Kingdom began to founder.  It also shows 
> that 
> > the Gothic influence on Lombardic is not directly connected to 
> Gothic 
> > refugees.  The second quote is even more interesting.  The 
southern 
> > part of the Ostrogothic Kingdom fell in about 555; the Lombards 
> > arrived 13 years later in 568.  This is interesting because the 
> > Lombards arrived in the area after the Bavarians were already 
> settled 
> > in Bavaria.  
> > 	In 551, a Goth named Jordannes wrote a work called 
> > the "Getica", or "The History of the Goths", and in it he 
mentions 
> > the Bavarians (the Baiovari) who were already settled in Bavaria: 
> > "LV (280) After a certain time, when the wintry cold was at hand, 
> the 
> > river Danube was frozen over as usual. For a river like this 
freezes 
> > so hard that it will support like a solid rock an army of foot-
> > soldiers and wagons and carts and whatsoever vehicles there may 
> be,--
> > nor is there need of skiffs and boats. So when Thiudimer, king of 
> the 
> > Goths, saw that it was frozen, he led his army across the Danube 
and 
> > appeared unexpectedly to the Suavi from the rear. Now this 
country 
> of 
> > the Suavi has on the east the Baiovari, on the west the Franks, 
on 
> > the south the Burgundians and on the north the Thuringians. (281) 
> > With the Suavi there were present the Alamanni, then their 
> > confederates, who also ruled the Alpine heights, whence several 
> > streams flow into the Danube, pouring in with a great rushing 
sound. 
> > Into a place thus fortified King Thiudimer led his army in the 
> winter-
> > time and conquered, plundered and almost subdued the race of the 
> > Suavi as well as the Alamanni, who were mutually banded together. 
> > Thence he returned as victor to his own home in Pannonia and 
> joyfully 
> > received his son Theodoric, once given as hostage to 
Constantinople 
> > and now sent back by the Emperor Leo with great gifts. (282) Now 
> > Theodoric had reached man's estate, for he was eighteen years of 
age 
> > and his boyhood was ended."  One supposes that if the Bavarians 
were 
> > Suavi or Alamanni, they would have allied themselves with their 
> > neighbors against the Goths, and that Thiudimer, King of the 
Goths, 
> > would have attacked them too.  It is interesting to note that 
> > Jordannes does not present the Bavarians as Suevi, Alamanni, 
> > Thuringians, or Marcomanni.  (In Chapters XVI [89] and XXII [113] 
> > Jordannes mentiones the Marcomanni, but he does not connect them 
> with 
> > the Bavarians.)  In any case, this clearly shows that the 
Bavarians 
> > were in Bavaria long before the Lombard invasions began.  In 
> > addition, I have two sets of encyclopedia dates which give the 
time-
> > frame for the Bavarian settlement in Bavaria:  A.D. 488-520 and 
A.D. 
> > 489-539.  Both of these dates about thirty years before the 
arrival 
> > of the Lombards.
> > 	The "New Catholic Encyclopedia says:  "After the Agilolfing 
> > House had attained domination in Bavaria under the suzerainty of 
the 
> > Franks (c. 550), the Irish and Frankish mission began.  The 
> > missionaries Eustace and Agilus, who came fom Luxeuil, had only 
> > limited success.  The work of the missionary bishops Emmeram, 
> Rupert, 
> > and Corbinian (c. 700) was much more lasting and effective" (page 
> > 175).  This too clearly shows that the Bavarians were already 
> settled 
> > in Bavaria before the time of the Langobards, that the Bavarians 
> > turned to the Franks for protection when the southern part of the 
> > Ostrogothic Kingdom was collapsing, and that the Bavarians were 
not 
> > the Catholic Marcomanni.
> > 	For these reasons I do not consider it likely that the 
> > Langobards are the first Bavarians; however, it is entirely 
possible 
> > that when the peoples of the areas "Teutonized"  by the 
Ostrogoths 
> > came into close proximity with the Langobards, they may have 
> affected 
> > each others' languages through linguistic sharing; merchants from 
> > these areas may have carried these changes to towns and cities 
> > throughout Southern Germany, perhaps setting off the Second 
German 
> > Sound Shift.   So in this sense, Dirk, I think you may be right, 
> that 
> > some of these characteristics may have occured indirectly and may 
> > have involved the Langobards.
> > Sincerely yours,
> > Cory 
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > Hi Cory and Francisc,
> > > 
> > > your discussion is really interesting. I think one of the 
> arguments 
> > > against a Gothic mission to Bavaria is based on the fact that 
the 
> > > Arian church was never really focused on missionary work in 
> > general. 
> > > However, one thing is obvious Theoderic was keen to secure the 
> > borders 
> > > of his realm once the conquest of Italy was complete. In some 
> cases 
> > he 
> > > sought marriage alliances while he resorted to war against the 
> > Gepids 
> > > in order to secure the important north-eastern gate-way into 
> Italy. 
> > > The Bajuvari were at the northern border of the Ostrogothic 
> kingdom 
> > at 
> > > a strategically important position. Controlling Bavaria could 
> > > potentially help to thwart Frankish attempts to expand east and 
> > > south-eastwards. The Thuringian kingdom was also allied with 
the 
> > > Ostrogoths to a similar end. However, in Bavaria I suppose that 
> the 
> > > Ostrogoths might have seen a chance for more direct 
intervention. 
> > It 
> > > has been argued that some of the administrative divisions of 
> > Bavaria 
> > > were put into place by the Goths. 
> > > 
> > > I agree with Corey, that the ways of political and linguistic 
> > > influence of the Goths on Bavaria is probably more complicated 
> than 
> > > missions and refugees, but I am slightly more sceptical about a 
> > real 
> > > 'influx' of actual Goths into Bavaria. I would propose a more 
> > indirect 
> > > scenario. It is an established fact that the Bavarian dukedom 
was 
> > > closely related with the Langobardic kingdom in Italy. We know 
> that 
> > > some Langobardic kings spend much of their lifetime in Bavaria 
and 
> > the 
> > > last Langobardic kings are often called the Bavarian dynasty. 
> After 
> > > the fall of the Ostrogothic kingdom, the Goths did not vanish 
from 
> > > Italy, but basically blended into the local and new Langobardic 
> > > population. As  such Gothic will likely have made some 
impression 
> > on 
> > > Langobardic, and this influence could have been carried through 
> > > Langobards/Goths to Bavaria.
> > > 
> > > I believe one area where a linguistic and other influence 
should 
> be 
> > > visible is personal names. Bavaria has to this day a number of 
> > > peculiar personal names that could portray an East Germanic 
(not 
> > > necessarily Gothic) influence. Thus, we have otherwise unknown 
> male 
> > > names like Tassilo, Odilo/Uatila and Athala, but also Otakar 
which 
> > is 
> > > directly derived from Odoaker. Interestingly, a lead-name of 
the 
> > > Bavarian Agilofing ducal house was Fara. This name may have 
been 
> > > brought to Bavaria, by the Herul prince of that name who became 
> > also 
> > > duke of Bavaria. In addition, Fara was also a lead-name of some 
> > > Langobardic ducal houses.
> > > 
> > > In contrast to Corey I believe that Bavarian is essentially a 
West 
> > > Germanic language and that the 'men from Baia', where initially 
> > > Langobards and later after the 530s Thuringians. These were 
> > > supplemented by East Germanic splinter groups such as Skiri 
(who 
> > have 
> > > given their name to Scheyern/Skirensis in Bavaria), Rugians 
near 
> > > Passau and Heruls in Austro-Bavaria (where we may even have 
> > placenames 
> > > based on the Herul name), as well as some Goths and 'Italian 
> > > Langobards'. 
> > > 
> > > I wonder if the so- called 5 'Genealogiae', i.e. the five 
leading 
> > > early Bajuvarian families in the 6th and 7th  centuries: the 
> Huosi, 
> > > Fagana, Hahhilinga, Draozza and Anniona plus the Agilofing 
dukes 
> > are 
> > > not the ruling clans of 5 or 6 different tribal groups. Is 
anybody 
> > > aware of an interpretation of these names?
> > > 
> > > cheers,
> > > Dirk


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