[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[Einar Birgisson]

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > > >  
          
       Einar; Hæ Dirk                                                 

  I see that you post this letter to Troels.            

So I was not going to come with any comments. But I changed my mind 
because you do mention here my opinion on Procop. writings.           
I will make just a few comments and come with a few questions.

> Hi 
> However, concerning Procopius I would say that he was trying to 
> manipulate in the sense that he wanted his readers to see 
barbarians 
> in general and the Heruls in particular in a certain light. 
> 
> Yet, it must be clear that Procopius had a very low opinion of the 
> Germanic people in general. He frequently called them treacherous 
and 
> drunkards. Thus, about the Heruls, Procopius said that it is 
> 'remarable for them to be not treacherous or drunken'. He also 
comes 
> up with all kind of customs for the Heruls, arguing that they kill 
the 
> sick people, by calling upon a stranger to kill them by tying them 
> to trees and burning them alive. Also, he stated that they killed 
> their old people. Some writers even argued that this reflected 
> Scandinavian practices thus underlying their ties with Scandinavia. 

  Einar; I find this interesting.                                     

 Because old legends in Iceland(which I read as a kid and found 
horrible) say that in Iceland in pagan times(about 870-1000) then old 
and sick people were killed by throwing them down cliffs.      

I think this was done especially when there were hard times(lack of 
food).                                                                
I still remember the picture showing a man throwing a old man or 
woman down a cliff.                                                   
Killing the old and sick seems to have been widely practiced in 
Iceland in pagan times.

> However, at the same time the same authors make no mention of 
another 
> 'customs' of the Heruls that Procopius informs us about. Thus, 
> Procopius tells us that even after becoming Christians the "Heruls 
> continued to mate with donkeys" and remained the most disgusting 
kind 
> of creature. 
> 
> How should we treat this information Troels? Was this also 
provided  
> by Scandinavian traders or Scandinavian Heruls visiting their 
brethren 
> in the South, as Bertil wrote?
> 
> Procopius saw all Germanic people as treacherous drunkards, but the 
> Heruls were in his eyes the worst scum around. Calling them 
sodomists 
> placed them on the same level as animals and this is exactly how 
> Procopius wanted to present them.
> 
> You ask me several times: why would Procopius lie? Einar said 
> repeatedly that Procopius was trustworthy and reliable and Tore 
said 
> that we should simply believe what Procopius wrote.                

     Einar; I do not think I did generalize like that. I said so(that 
his writings were trustworthy) when discussing that particular 
subject. That is the travels of the Heruli descriped by 
Procopius.                                    
I just do not find it necessary to state it every time when 
discussing that subject that I am talking about that particular 
subject and nothing else.

However, I would 
> turn this around and ask why would Procopius care to tell us a fair 
> and accurate account of the history of the Heruls if he held such a 
> low opion of them? In my view this makes it very unlikely that 
> Procopius would have taken the trouble to get first hand reports 
from 
> Herulic mercenaries or traders. He hated the Heruls and he could 
not 
> even restrain himself from hurling the worst of abuse at them in 
his 
> writing. Yet, those scholars who want to believe in Procopius 
simply 
> ignore this, because it would cast serious doubts on his overall 
> credibility.
> 
> The foremost expert on Procopius, A. Cameron writes about this:
> 
> "Most scholars naturally not wishing to forego the data, recognise 
the 
> ethnographic cliches, yet persist in supposing that Procopius had 
> access to good information from chatty barbarians hes is supposed 
to 
> have met while in the Byzantine army. But a few examples show how 
> tricky the problem actuall is,...."
> 
> 
> Then she goes on to explain that Procopius used all sorts of 
> stereotypes, mixed with ethnographic and geographic information  
from 
> ancient writers and supplemented with the product of his own 
fantasy 
> and hatred.                                                    

           Einar; One listmember(I think on Germanic-L) stated that 
A. Cameron did not agree with Goffart on Procopius.
A. Cameron uses strong words if she states so; "and supplemented with 
the product of his own fantasy and hatred."                           

Cameron states that for Procopius, barbarians had to be 
> used by the empire in its wars thus anihilating one group of 
barbarian 
> with the other, or alternatively they had to be dispatched to the 
end 
> of the world. I.e. ultima Thule or Scandia, which according to 
ancient 
> geographers was the most disgusting place not fit for humans to 
live 
> on. Thus, in Procopius' eyes Thule was just fine for the animal-
like 
> Heruls.

  Einar; It would be nice if you would make a distinction between 
what A. Cameron is stating and then when you are using your own words.

And maybe tell me from where A. Cameron´s above statements are(books-
pages).    
It might be nice to read those statements in context.

I find it interesting if she states; "was the most disgusting place 
not fit for humans to live on".                                       
And the statement; "Thus, in Procopius eyes Thule was just fine for 
the animal-like Heruls".                                              

I am not sure here. Was this statement(the last one) made by;  

  a. A. Cameron? 
  b. Procopius?
  c. Are you making this statement?
  d. Someone else?
> 
   Bless,Bless, Einar.


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