[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Procop.-Cameron-DNA R.-Barði-Einar P.
Einar Birgisson
einarbirg at YAHOO.COM
Tue Dec 4 17:35:36 UTC 2001
--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > > > > >
>
>
> In any event in the case of the Heruls' supposed sodomism, he
> knowingly included untrue and abusive information into his account,
> meaning that he may have done this once, twice or very often. Yet,
> your majority scholars would still argue that otherwise he is very
> reliable and the story about the killing of the sick (by buring
them
> alive) and the old is very authentic and documents their link to
> Scandinavia. As Cameron and Goffart have shown we need to be a bit
> more carefull with this kind of pick and choose scholarship.
>
>
> Einar. Hæ Dirk.
Thanks for your response. I understand what you mean. And that we
should be cautious when analyzing Procopius.
I will admit that I have very little knowledge of Procopius writings,
so I can not discuss his writings in
detail.
It seems that A. Cameron books are not available up here.
There is one book by some Alan Cameron(do not know if the same person)
and the book´s name is; The Greek anthology from Meleager to
Planudes. 1993 Oxford.
But that book does not discuss Procopius.
I found Procopius descriptions of the Heruli very funny. I was
thinking of Icelandic scholars when Barði was once promoting his
ideas that the Heruli(part of their descendands) moved to Iceland.
I think they all started reading Procopius to find out who were those
damn Heruli, Barði was talking about. They probably got a shock
when
reading all this. And decided that no way they would accept his
ideas. They probably decided that no Icelander wanted to have the
Heruli as ancestors.
Well, I do not really care. I think the Heruli were no worse or no
better than others(Romans included).
And we should not take this "mate with donkeys stuff" too seriously.
Everybody knows that people have been having sex with animals in all
cultures and in all time periods.I know it,you know it and Procopius
knew it.
> > However, I would
> > > turn this around and ask why would Procopius care to tell us a
> fair
> > > and accurate account of the history of the Heruls if he held
such
> a
> > > low opion of them? In my view this makes it very unlikely that
> > > Procopius would have taken the trouble to get first hand
reports
> > from
> > > Herulic mercenaries or traders. He hated the Heruls and he
could
> > not
> > > even restrain himself from hurling the worst of abuse at them
in
> > his
> > > writing. Yet, those scholars who want to believe in Procopius
> > simply
> > > ignore this, because it would cast serious doubts on his
overall
> > > credibility.
> > >
> > > The foremost expert on Procopius, A. Cameron writes about this:
> > >
> > > "Most scholars naturally not wishing to forego the data,
recognise
> > the
> > > ethnographic cliches, yet persist in supposing that Procopius
had
> > > access to good information from chatty barbarians hes is
supposed
> > to
> > > have met while in the Byzantine army. But a few examples show
how
> > > tricky the problem actuall is,...."
Einar; I have problems with believing that Procopius hated
them. More likely he disliked them. Or had a great predjudice against
them . That is more likely.
I think he really did not care were they traveled too. He had no
motivation to lie about the travel of the Heruli.
At least not any political motivation.
And maybe he did not dislike them at all!! He just pretended to to
so,because he was expected to dislike them.And express that in his
writings. If he would not have done so,then people would have said;
You seem to like the barbarians!
Well I am just speculating. My point; It is very hard to say what was
really going on in Procopius mind.
> > >
> > >
> > > Then she goes on to explain that Procopius used all sorts of
> > > stereotypes, mixed with ethnographic and geographic
information
> > from
> > > ancient writers and supplemented with the product of his own
> > fantasy
> > > and hatred.
> >
> > Einar; One listmember(I think on Germanic-L) stated
that
> > A. Cameron did not agree with Goffart on Procopius.
>
>
>
>
> Goffart has not really published anything major on Procopius, so
> there is no question of the two agreeing on this or not. In general
> Goffart said that Procopius has to be analysed with greatest care.
> Especially has he warned against using Procopius as a resource,
that
> can be 'mined' at will by people who want to use certain bits and
> pieces to support their pet-theories, while at the same time
ignoring
> other bits.
>
> Einar; I do understand your point here. It would be
interesting to read what A. Cameron has to say. But that will have to
wait.
> > A. Cameron uses strong words if she states so; "and supplemented
> with
> > the product of his own fantasy and hatred."
>
>
>
> These are not her words exactly. But she makes it clear that
Procopius
> was highly biased against the Heruls; so much so that he could not
> even restrain himself from including the worst of insults and lies
> about them in his account, thus greatly reducing the overall value
of
> his account.
Einar; But I see it as entirely possible that they killed the old
and sick. At least sometimes.
I wonder why he was so biased against the Heruli?. Actually there
seems to have been more people/groups Procopius disliked very much.
Now I might be saying something wrong(this is from memory) but did
not Procopius write something very bad about Justinian and his wife
after they passed away!! And those writings have surprised scholars.
>
>
> > Cameron states that for Procopius, barbarians had to be
> > > used by the empire in its wars thus anihilating one group of
> > barbarian
> > > with the other, or alternatively they had to be dispatched to
the
> > end
> > > of the world. I.e. ultima Thule or Scandia, which according to
> > ancient
> > > geographers was the most disgusting place not fit for humans to
> > live
> > > on. Thus, in Procopius' eyes Thule was just fine for the animal-
> > like
> > > Heruls.
> >
> > Einar; It would be nice if you would make a distinction between
> > what A. Cameron is stating and then when you are using your own
> words.
> >
> > And maybe tell me from where A. Cameron´s above statements
> are(books-
> > pages).
> > It might be nice to read those statements in context.
>
>
>
> "Procopius and the sixth century", you will have to find the pages
> yourself, I don't have the book, but read it some years ago and
quoted
> from notes.
>
> Einar; Thanks for the info.
>
>
>
> > I find it interesting if she states; "was the most disgusting
place
> > not fit for humans to live on".
>
>
> Obviously, Cameron did not write this. It is generally known from
the
> writings of Jordanes, Cassiodorus that Scandza/Thule was seen as a
> highly unattractive, almost inhabitable place for humans and
animals
> at the time of Procopius. Jordanes stated: "... the land is not
only
> inhospitable to men but cruel even to wild beasts". Jordanes story
> about a Scandzan king Rodulf who despised Scandza so much that he
fled
> from there to Italy, was supposed to show that it was better to
live
> as an inferior in Italy than a king in Scandza/Thule.
Einar; I just wonder if those historians were writing
against their best knowledge? They were maybe just writing what the
Roman elite wanted and expected to hear? And I am not sure they
respected the Roman elite anymore than the barbarians!!!
>
> > And the statement; "Thus, in Procopius eyes Thule was just fine
for
> > the animal-like
Heruls".
>
> >
> > I am not sure here. Was this statement(the last one) made by;
> >
> > a. A. Cameron?
> > b. Procopius?
> > c. Are you making this statement?
> > d. Someone else?
>
>
> That is obivously my own statement. As Cameron stated, for
Procopius
> the barbarians should be used and anihilated in wars with other
> barbarians or they should go to the end of the earth, which is
synonym
> for Thule at the time. In Procopius view, who described the Heruls
as
> sodomistic, drunken traitors, the unattractive conditions in Thule
> will likely have been seen befitting for the Heruls.
Einar; I can imagine the expression on the faces of
Icelandic scholars when reading about the people Barði was
promoting
were among the ancestors of the Icelanders. Poor them.
>
> But let me ask you a question. Do you think that Procopius'
> description of the Heruls as 'mating with donkeys', 'notorious
> traitors and drunkards', are not casting some doubts on him as to
his
> reliability as neutral reporter? His dislike of the Heruls might
> easily have affected his whole reporting about them.
Einar; I think that such writings just show us that Procopius
was a rather rough person. A little bit special and maybe his
language use(and manners) were influenced beeing in such a intensive
contact with the barbarians.? His manners were maybe no better than
the manners of the Heruli.!
It is not really possible to judge about his reliability from that.
He clearly made
> up one bit of information about them, he might have made up more or
> most of it. We just don't know, meaning that we cannot built futher
> histories on this report.
And therefore, as I said earlier, no serious
> book on Swedish history and archaeology regards a migration of
Heruls
> or other East Germanic groups as a viable theory.
Einar; Well, I cannot really comment on your last statement. I
really have no idea, if you are right or wrong. Maybe it is a
statement some of the Scandinavian listmembers can comment on.
But I have heard that discussing the Goths in Sweden have been
considered taboo because of the silly idea that the Goths can be
connected to the Nazis. And I think that many Swedish scholars are no
more happy than Icelandic ones to promote the idea that the Heruli
might have been among their ancestors.(For the same prudish reasons).
I seriously think that Swedish scholars do harbor some predjudice
against the Goths and maybe therefore the Heruli!
Well, I see the clear signs that some Icelandic scholars do harbor a
predjudice agains the Celts. That is they do not like the idea that
maybe 40-50% of the Icelandic gene pool can be traced to them. They
even call them "slaves that knew nothing and nothing could be learned
from" Get the idea?
Some kind of nationalism standing in the way for progress?
Thanks for your comments. I think for me it is no point to discuss
this any further. Because my knowledge of this subject has reached
it´s limits.
But I think that the only way to solve this problem is a good and
solid archaeological reaserch and DNA reaserch. That would be
specifically aimed at solving this problem.
But as for now, I am convinced that the Heruli went up North.
Otherwise a part of their descendants would not have gone to Iceland
in the period about 900 A.D. Well,you know what I mean.
Only a very good and solid archaeological reaserch and DNA reaserch
showing the opposite will change my mind.
But the DNA reaserch conclusions so far can be taken as supportive of
the idea that a part of the Heruli descendants did go to Iceland.
That can be seen in one of the Genetic rapports published in the;
American Journal of Human Genetics.
As far as I remember then the gene mix in Icelanders(beeing traced
back at least about 1000 years) is more than can be accounted for
with a simple gene mix between British Isles and Scandinavian
populations. I think that was stated clearly.
But more reaserch is needed.
And I am not going to start that Genetic reaserch dialogue again.
Well, and then Barði Guðmundsson did come up with some pretty
good
arguments. And the works of Einar Pálsson have supported his
conclusions.
Well to mention then Barði argued for that there had been a much
more
mix with the Celts than previously thought.(Well, many other scholars
in Iceland have been making that claim)
Well,now it has been proved with DNA reaserch that those scholars
were right. It is not debated anymore. Barði was right. And I
think
that in the future, then DNA reaserch will show that he was right too
about the Heruli.
>
Bless,bless Einar.
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