[gothic-l] Re: The Eruli and Runes

[troels_brandt]

Tore,

I am not sure Bertil's theory will fall away even if the runestones 
were from the beginning of the 7th century, as Istaby showed some 
generations and the "newcomer" did not need to arrive from Pannonia.

I look forward to hear Bertil explain about HaeruwulfiR, HathuwolafiR 
and HariwolafiR in relation to the earlier discussions regarding 
Herulic names. 

Questions from an amateur: Is there any connection between Arufus, 
Haeru- and Hari-? Is there any connection between Hathu- and OE 
Heathobeards?

Troels



--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >Tore and Bertil,
> >
> >I am not sure I understand the background for combining runes - and
> >the runestones in Blekinge - with the Heruls.
> >
> >To my knowledge Semitic and Phoenician alphabets formed the basis 
of
> >the Etruscian and an early Latin alphabet - the latter containing
> >most signs similar to the runes. Personally I believe the arguments
> >put forward by Erik Moltke that the runes were "invented" by people
> >knowing this Latin alphabet but living in an independent Germanic
> >culture in a certain distance of the Romans in the first two
> >centuries AD. I think the intensity in the Southeastern Europe of
> >early finds is too low to point as the only indication at Heruls 
and
> >Goths as inventors, and we know trade routes making such finds
> >possible. The high intensity of finds is in Scandinavia (north of 
the
> >Ejder) and from the 6th century also in Southern Germany.
> >
> >There are evident archaeological signs of Eastgermanics in the area
> >already before 500AD, and very few scholars seriously studying
> >Procopius express doubt, that some Heruls arrived to "Thule" around
> >500 AD and that some of these returned to Illyria. The subject
> >normally discussed is their number, route and destination - and I
> >agree this is open for discussion.
> >
> >This dating corresponds of course to the statement from 
Scandinavian
> >linguists calling the 6th century the stormy century in the history
> >of Nordic language, and it is correct, that the first examples of 
the
> >new alphabet are known from this century, but first around 800 AD 
the
> >old 24 FUTHARK disappeared. Tore: Are there any other arguments
> >connecting the new 16 rune-alphabet to the Heruls?
> >
> >Even when we accept that Heruls settled in Blekinge, I do not see 
an
> >obvious connection between the Heruls and the runestones from 
Istaby,
> >Stentoften, Bjoerketorp and Gummarp dated 600-675 AD also by Danish
> >scholars. The first impression is that Bertil has concluded the 
other
> >way round deciding first these kings of Lister to be Heruls, as I 
do
> >not regard general Germanic names and a faint similarity to the
> >Gothic! bible as arguments. Bertil: Are there any other arguments
> >connecting especially these runestones to the Heruls? You have not
> >clearly pointed out any Herulian indications in the 3 names from
> >Istaby.
> >
> >As far as I can see the answers drowned in the Aartum-debate 
leading
> >to the "execution" of the innocent Arild Hauge.
> >
> >Troels
> 
> 
> Troles,
> My point was to show the difference in time between the Blekinge 
runes and
> the immigration of the Heruls to the Scandinavian peninsula.
> I think Bertil is wrong trying to link these two together. I don't 
think
> they are related. The runes are much later.
> In the 7th century we have a strong Svea power centered in the Lake 
Mälar
> area with garrisons around the Baltic.
> According to Guta Saga, history of Gotland written down about 1220 
as a
> preface to Guta Lagh, there was a trade and defence agreement 
between the
> Gutar and Svear  probably about 550.
> 
> We can presume that Öland was part of this area as well as the 
eastern
> coasts of the Baltic. Why not even Blekinge. There is an Enlglish 
source
> from that time saying that all this part was controlled by the 
Svear.
> 
> Haimdagar 2001: "I en 60-poängsuppsats 1982 kartlägger Rune Elmér 
under
> handledning av professor Erik Nylén "De nordiska vikingatågens 
bakgrund och
> färdvägar i Österled". Han skriver bl a "Åtminstone från ca 650 
började
> svear och gotlänningar att intressera sig för områdena  på andra 
sidan
> Östersjön. Stödjepunkter för handeln anlades utefter östra och 
sydöstra
> kusten av Östersjön. Fyndmaterialet bestyrker, att åtminstone 
gotlänningar
> har hållit till i Grobin och Truso (Elbing), och åtminstone svear i 
Grobin
> och Wiskiauten". "
> 
> In 1982 Rune Elmér wrote about the Svear and Gutar in Grobin, Truso
> (Elbing) and Wiskiauten that they had established strong points 
there from
> at least about 650..
> 
> I think we should rather link the Blekinge rune stones to this 
chain of
> events.  The backside of this is of course that part of the 
arguments by
> Beril for a Herulian settlement in Blekinge falls away.
> Tore
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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