[gothic-l] Hachmann and Pytheas

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Andreas wrote:

"Already Dieter Stichtenoth, Pytheas von Marseille, Über das
Weltmeer. Die Fragmente übersetzt und erläutert. Böhlau, Köln,
Graz 1959, pp.30-32 and 88-90, pointed out that Plinius supplanted
the Lugii, which he found in the text of Pytheas he used, by the
Goths, because by his time the Gutones were geographically in
the positions formerly occupied by the Lugii. Plinius did the same
with the terms Albion and Britannia. he exchanged the older word
against the contemporyry geographic name. The oldest source
transmitting fragments of Pytheas is Apollonios of Rhodios in his
epic "The Argonauts, chant IV, and he gives ll.645 f "Kelts and
Ligyans", in the geographic position, where Plinius has Gutones.
As I already remarked several times, Pytheas had no Goths and
there is no evidence at all for Goths 300 BC."

Hails,

Andreas information is quite interesting and complicates the question
still more. Since I have not had the opportunity to get hold of
Stichtenoths   book yet I  can say nothing about his arguments on
Apollonius' Argonauts. If Plinius used that special copy as a source it
is indeed dubious, but maybe he had access to more information. Hachmann
rejects Plinius/Pytheas and also mentions Zeuss' and Müllenhoffs'
betterings, later accepted by Schmidt,Gutenbrunner and Schwarz. Besides
there is a complication with Detlefsen with his *Inguionibus  which he
ties to the Ingvaeones. Hachmann never mentions Apollonius and the
Argonauts in this connection.
Hachmann also writes:
"Sicher ist es, daß das Textstück des Pytheas, das Plinius verwandte,
nicht wörtlich wiedergegeben ist und Ergänzungen enthält. Sicher ist
ferner, daß es sich schon ursprünglich auf die Nordseeküste bezog und
auch von Plinius so verstanden wurde. Deswegen zog Bremer folgerichtig
im Betracht, die Goten könnten ursprünglich in Holstein gesiedelt
haben.Wahrscheinlich ist, daß erst Plinius den Namen der Goten einfügte;
sei es absichtlich, sei es, weil er den bei Pytheas genannten Namen als
den Goten verstand. Mehr ist aus dieser Stelle gewiß nicht zu entnehmen
und daher muß sie außer Betracht gelassen werden..."

I think we now can conclude that the information of Plinius regarding
Pytheas must be regarded as very dubious at least, but I dare not at
present say too much about the reliability of Apollonius either. Even if
Plinius is misleading there is in any case a good possibility the Goths
might have arrived at that time from Gotland. Gotlandic cemetaries are
forsaked at about 350-300 BC and  there are also other indications of
emigration. Gutenbrunners   proposal with amber-trade is still reliable.
Also the Swedish mainland have a lack of finds during this period and
on, and  deserted habitations, specially in Östergötland and Tjust.
Burial customs  are similar in Sweden and  certain parts of the Vistula
area in this period indicating Scandinavian immgrants   living close to
neighbouring continental  folks. Hachmann himself says the Goths must
have been present at least 100 BC to be known  by Strabo et c. Bremers
suggestion shows the range of the supposed Gothic area which specially
Schwarz proposes. I agree that Goths might have lived in Holstein as
well as part of the Jutlandic area, which definitely  was inhabited by a
Gothic folk- the Jutes (Ýtas).

Kindly
Ingemar

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