[gothic-l] Goetar, Gautoi, Gutar, Goths and Gaut

Mon Jul 16 04:46:42 UTC 2001

> Classical authors attest the Goths at the time of the Birth
> of Christ lived south of the Baltic Sea.

Professor Thorsten Andersson i artikeln "Goetar,
goter, gutar" (see earlier reference on where it can be
found, p. 5). I think exact locations and times are not
mentioned while they are so well known by Gothic
scholars.

If you want to refresh your memory why not check out
Ingemar Nordgrens Chapter 7, pp. 233-234 in _Goter-
kaellan_.

What point do you have?

May I refer you to Professor Anderson's 1996 article,
p. 5. If you check out the original it may become
clearer to you.

Yes, what about the goetar. If what you say is true
the Goetar did not exist before they were "Vikings
in Goetaland" and did step forward in history, armed
as Vikings?

Maybe a reading of the two Andersson articles under
discussion for a few days here would be helpful. See
my message 4369 and for a summary of the _Namn och
Bygd_-article see my messages 3585, 3589 och 3590.
But maybe you would have to read the whole article.

Are you suggesting the Goths for example originated around
the English Channel? Otherwise it is hard to
follow your reasoning here. I have not seen any
sources mentioning the Goths, the Goetar and the
Gutar in that area.

Yes, I think you need to brush up on the sources
and maybe present a theory concerning the
relation between the progewnitors Gaut/Gapt, 
Gear, Gaussus and the three peoples Goths,
Gutar ands Goetar. Or rather a theory why they
are not linguistically connected. During the era of gothicism
in Sweden the Svear identified themselves with 
the Goths/Goetar, but had no relation whatsoever to the
Goetar of the era 0 - 500 AD.

Well, I think the explanation given in Hoops 2nd. ed
is quite reliable and useful. Could you maybe
explain the reason you think Hoops is incorrect
here?

Also, if you don't agree with the standpoint of most researchers
on the origin of the people names we are discussing and there
relation to Gaut/Gapt, you will have to read up on it and I
have suggested Anderssons article of 1996 and the Hoops articles
on Gaut/Gapt and Goetar.

Finally I think I lost you on your last sections there. Whats the significance
between Mr. Bang's views and the relation Gaut/Gapt, Geat, Gausus one
one hand and Goetar, Gutar and Goths on the other?

Gothically

Bertil

At precicely the time of Birth of Christ? Could please give me some 
referenses  on the authors and the exact locations and times?

If the migration of the goths from Gotland wich You, Tore, I, 
Ingemar, and maybe others on the list does seem to agree upon in fact 
MIGHT have happened, occured several hundred years BCE then please 
forgive my mistake, but it doesn't shake my point. It corroborates 
it. 

I really don't follow you here. Do you mean Götar (Gautar:-)) I 
thought these were the Vikings in Götaland, until the end of the 
eleventh century probably ruled by the Danes. 
Gutar I assume is the people living on Gotland(formerly Gutland), 
wich today have absolutely nothing more in common culturally with the 
goths than other germanic-speakers( as the really good evidence on 
this list suggest). How it was several hundred years before christ, I 
can only guess upon. But don't do it, because I find no answers in 
the sources and the reseach community on this.  

 For all the different people who lived there.- yeah perhaps. But I 
really don't think that anyone who touched the Baltic sea instantly 
became a goth and then would remember it generation after generation.
And why not state the same things about the Black Sea, Öresund, 
Kattegatt, Skagerak, The Englich Channel, The Mediterranean etc?

Thanks for the referense. Right now I'm in Riksgränsen but as soon as 
I come to Gautburg I will look it up in the library.

But, I'm critical to all things I read. It doesnt have to be true 
that the words Gaut goths and gutes are related and have something to 
do with gjuta and men just because a professor writes it. 
I really want to understand it myself and I dont want to "be told" 
how to believe. 
> Gapt/Gaut lead the Amal Ostrogoths. Amal does not
> appear until after three generations. Ther cannot be
> much doubt that Gaut is the progenitor of the Goths.

There has been many posts on this the last week, forgive me for not 
being able to follow them all. Anyway I have been able to have a look 
on some of them and I found in e. g. these:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4283
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4372 
 that the ancestor of the amals is Gapt and not Gaut. 
Your "Gapt/Gaut" rendering does seem to be totally incorrect and thus 
desinformative for me. 
I also really don't believe that Gaut could be = Gapt. To me they 
seemk quite unlike.

I'm VERY sceptcal to all ethymologies derived from words from proto-
languages. May it be proto-indoeuropean or proto-germanic. I  really 
don't like it, simply because they never existed, not in any way we 
could figure out at least. 

What research?

Don't you think that I have people agreeing with me on any, some, 
most or all of my points? I know several very serous scholars that 
does to name a few: Jörgen Chr Bang in Odense wrote on the genaology 
of the elder runes, and traced it directly from semitic scripts, 
without the way of the greek and the roman ones. Write to him and you 
will get his excellent papers. The scholar in semitic languages Kjell 
Aartun also thinks the norweigan elder uthark- inscriptions are 
written in some semitic-related language
I could continue to quote the father of modern hebrew lexicology 
Wilhelm Gesenius in his II-article on the hebrew word Yod-Vet-Lamed, 
yaval :
-----------
 jubeln, jubilare shallnachnamendes stw., wie die vervandten 'jolen 
(schwed., wovon das Jul-Fest der Scandinaver), holl. joelen, 
entfernter ululare, eiulare, und in den semitichen sprachen (with 
hebr and arab. scripts)"yalal, YLYL(arab), 'alal, desgl yavav(aus 
beyden javal) Davon yovel.
-----------------
This last word yovel  means jubilee or ram(s horn)
I find this particularly interesting since in very old scandinavian 
yule traditions the ram (Julbocken) (someone with a ram's mask) plays 
the big role instead of Father Christmas. 

I also remember that even Dirk answered me in germanic-l, that he 
didn't consider my theories all far-fetched, and totally impossible.
I don't remember his exact words. But in any case it WASN'T 
like "throwing in a burning torch" as I thought it could possibly 
have been.  

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