[gothic-l] Re: Odin / Religions

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi Troels,

thanks a lot for your detailed replies.

(snip)


> > I thought that the term Ases/Anses is derived from the word for 
> wooden 
> > beam and simply referes to wooden idols that Germanic people 
> > worshipped. Is  it possible that a re-interpretation of Ases with 
> Asia 
> > was only made much later when the original meaning was long lost.
> > 
> 
> Many attempts of interpretations of the name have been presented - 
> also a version connected to "anses" in the meaning ancestors, and 
the 
> connection to Asi (a.e. Heyerdahl) and Ossi. Asians might be a re-
> interpretation, but even then you have to explain from where the 
> Tanais-story came (Tanaquisl=River Don). Snorri rejected in one of 
> his attempts the Troja-legend used by most Germanic tribes from 
700AD 
> and found an original story, which could not be inspired from the 
> name Asir as the only source. The story is in my opinion more 
> important than the name.   


I am not sure that I  completely follow.  The interpretation of Ases 
as wooden beam/wooden idol seems to be most widely accepted.



> > I thought that Plinius (or another ancient author) said that the 
> > tribes of Scandinavia belonged to the Hilleviones as opposed to 
the 
> > Ingviones  (North Sea tribes) Istviones and Irminones in the 
> Germania magna.
> 
> 
> There is a very good reason why Plinius did not describe the cult in 
> Svealand in the middle of the first millenium: He was dead 500 years 
> earlier - and his collegues had past too. 


I know, but you used Plinius' term Ingvaeones for the cult in 
Svealand. And I only wanted to point out that under the term 
Ingvaeones are usually understood North Sea Germanic people of the 
Germania magna.



The names Yngve/Ynglinger 
> in Ynglingatal/-saga are normally supposed to derive from Ing, and 
> the name Svear indicates a fertility/sun cult - but the names are 
not 
> important in this connection. 
> 
> 
> > > If the leader of the Ases did not play such a role already at 
his 
> > > arrival, he got after his death a Wothan-like shape, and his 
name 
> > > became the Scandinavian version, Odin (According to Wolfram the 
> name 
> > > does not occur before the 6th century). Probably they already 
> > > worshipped Wothan or Gaut, and took advantage of both gods being 
> > > known in some areas of Scandinavia already. 
> > 
> > 
> > Maybe I mis-understood you, but are you saying that Odin and Wodan 
> are 
> > different gods? I thought Odin is a name that is derived from 
Wodan 
> or 
> > the Scandinavian version of the name Wodan.
>  
> 
> Initially we agreed about the assumption that "several images and 
> names of gods were spread all over Europe being picked up by 
> different people and cultures in different shapes". Wodan in one 
> people is not necessarily the same god in another people or another 
> time, but they had probably many elements in common. I see Odin as a 
> Scandinavian version of Wodan - deliberately similar, but not 
> identical.
> 

Ok, I think that sounds very plausible.



> 
> > "The rendering of dies Mercurii by Wôdenesdæg, which we
> encounter 
> from 
> > the third century onward, makes it certain that the Mercurius 
found 
> in 
> > Tacitus and other Latin authors is to be dentified with Wodan."
>  
> 
> I think this problem is often misinterpreted. The Latin authors 
often 
> found one of their own gods most similar to the Germanic god they 
> wanted to describe, and used the name of their own god. This does 
not 
> mean that Mercurius and Wodan are identical, and therefore we often 
> misunderstand the connections between the Germanic gods as most of 
> our sources are Roman and Greek. The translation of Roman calenders 
> is just a part of this problematic. 
> 
>  
> > "The express testimony of Tacitus, Paulus Diaconus, and others, as 
> > well as Odhin's place at the head of the Norse pantheon, were 
> formerly 
> > regarded as sufficient to establish the position of Wodan as the 
> chief 
> > god of all Teutons. This opinion has now gradually been abandoned 
> by 
> > the majority of scholars. Müllenhoff, Weinhold, Mogk, and many 
> others 
> > hold that Wodan was  originally a god of the Istvæones, and that 
> his 
> > worship was disseminated by the Rhine-Franconians, supplanting 
that 
> of 
> > the old sky god Tiu."
> > 
> 
> If this is your opinion too, we agree - except for his origin, which 
> I have no knowledge about.


I had no knowledge about this myself, but the article on the web-site 
that I provided explains the theory quite clearly.

cheers,

Dirk






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