[gothic-l] Re: Vandals et c.

[ingemar.nordgren at EBOX.TNINET.SE]

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:


> Wenskus is strongly influenced by writers like Schmidt and Kosinna. 
As 
>  Hachmann and Pohl have pointed out it will be a difficult and very 
> long-term effort to get the mistakes that Kossinna introduced into 
the 
> field out of peoples heads.

Hachmann and Pohl are not god father. Even older researchers may have 
 valuable results. Archaeology does not settle everything. This is I 
think a very modern opinion being used against Kossinna.


 

> That is a very weak argument in my view. When I said that the 
Gotones 
> were once subject to the Lugian-Vandili group and that their cultic 
> believes could have been influenced by them you argued that the 
> Gotones could still have worshipped Gaut while the Lugii may have 
> worshipped some Celtic gods. 

Yes, the celtic tribes! The Vandili were in my opinion not Celtic but 
just politicaly dependant as the Goths were of Vandili. Because  Goths 
and Vandili both spoke Germanic language  and both, according to my 
opinion, have a Scandinavian connection from very  long back in time - 
be it material or just religious/ideological for the Goths - there is 
no mystery with a difference between Germanics and Celts. Also between 
Vandals and Goths there are differences in the funeral system wich 
might show e.g. that the Goths had a greater use for weapons and hence 
did not bury them. They maybe preferred to slay Vandals? 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> The connection via Ring-names between Goths, Burgundians 
> and
> > Vandals however is strong as I see it. 
> 
> 
> In my view many of the ring-names in Germany that you argue go back 
o 
> the Burgundians cannot have been from them as they only passed 
through 
> those areas very briefly, while there are no ring-name 
concentrations 
> in their attested settlement areas (possbily near Worms/Mainz) and 
> west of Genf.


Are you speaking of pre-Christian time or not? The Arian Burgundians 
had of course no use of Ring-names - nor had the Arian Goths.



> Goffart is 
> also
> > rejected by Wolfram.
 
> You mean Goffart as a person? ;) or some of his analysis. Which 
> arguments are rejected by Wolfram? Does that  automatically mean 
that  Goffart is wrong?


His tendency to say most things are myth - his great scepticism - wich 
means he is generall critical tovards him.See for example his lecture 
Origo et religio-Ethnic traditions and early medieval literature.
> 

> Wenskus is obviously wrong. The Harudes are attested as part of the 
> Saxons and are mentioned by various ancient authors like Widukind as 
> such. There even is the pagus Harudorum (now Harzgau)as one of the 
> **South** Saxon gaue. Harudes were already part of Ariovist's army.

Thats your opinion that he is wrong. They could have been part of 
Ariovist army in any case without being Saxons.


 
> Again, the Hordaland analogy is no longer accepted. Firstly, it has 
> been argued the name similarity Horda to Harudes is contrived and 
> secondly, as Hachmann showed Hordaland was an extremely thinly 
> populated area in those days which in effect was situated at the 
> fringes of the populated world and as such by no means capable of 
> sustaining significant out-migrations.

Who mentioned migration. The Harudes rather grabbed hold of Hordaland 
from Jutland.(See Höfler)
 


> But this does not explain the relationship between the Scandinavian 
> Bronze Age, which I gather finished in about 600BC and the Suevi 
that 
> are not attested for another 500 years. Also, I don't understand 
this 
> relationship Gaut/Wodan. Most of the authors that you quote see 
> apparently Wodan as having originated among the Rhine-Frankish 
tribes. 
>  One of the earliest mentioning of Wodan and Donar/Thor is on the 
> Nordendorf (Augsburg/South Germany) fibula (5/6 century).

The Suevi as a tribe-formation - league - is attested later but the 
origin of their name, a cultic such, might go back to that time, about 
500 BC. By then it seems as, according to my survey anyhow,the cult of 
Gaut begins to compete with the old established solar cult, and the 
old league begins to fall apart and whither.The Suevi seem to be a 
local remnant of that  withering league. Later Gaut is combined with 
Wodan/Óðinn to Óðinn-gaut. I see Gaut as an early, Nordic variant of 
the later continental Wodan.They both seem to be odinistic but the 
sacrificial cycle changed from 19 to 8 years with Roman influence.


> 
> PS: It is a funny thing, this on-line communication. Everybody makes 
> his/her statements while non-verbal communication has almost no role 
> to play. Remember, when we met in London a few months ago and talked 
> about these things we seemed to be able to agree on much more. I 
> suppose that is one of the thinks that we have to bear in mind, 
namely 
> that this kind of communication tends to entrench positions rather 
> than lead to mutually acceptable and beneficial compromises.

Yes, dear Dirk. On the net everybody can read what is written which 
raises a need of carefulness not to be misunderstood and falsely 
quoted. When  chatting personally you could relax in a much better 
way.I really appreciated talking with you and I think we agree in most 
things but when it concerns the foundation of my dissertation I have 
worked that material through very carefully and made a lot of 
connections between archaeology, history, history of religion, science 
of art, history of literature and linguistics. To explain all this on 
line to make you comprehend my results is not possible. Archaeology is 
not the main topic but just one of the pieces.I have all the time 
tried to evaluate both old and new research and it is not every time 
that the new is the most convincing and it goes specially for the 
leuages.

I hope you  understand that I appreciate you very much but that does 
not mean we must agree in everything.

Best wishes from your friend
Ingemar


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