Comparing languages. Examples [gothic-l]

[cstrohmier at YAHOO.COM]

Hi Keth,
	Thanks for the information on words that may be related to 
Gothic "atta".  Your explanation sounds reasonable to me.
	Concerning the possible identification of Gothic inhumation 
and cremation burials with a matriarchal or patriachal cult, 
practices can vary for a variety of reasons, and do not necessarily 
indicate a difference of cult.
	What I was thinking was that among the pagan Goths, 
inhumation might be associated with earth-mother worship:  The 
placing of the body in the tomb being equal to placing the body in 
the womb of the earth-mother, leading to rebirth.  In cremation, the 
fire may signify the sun (Wotan), and the smoke of the burning body 
rises toward the sun.
	By way of analogy, the ancient pagan Romans would gather 
around the funeral pyre in the middle of the night, dressed in black, 
and set the pyre alight.  On the other hand, given the witness of the 
Roman catacombs and cemeteries, there can be little doubt that from 
the first arrival of the Apostles Peter and Paul in Rome right down 
to the present day, the Church of Rome has always encouraged her 
members to use inhumation in imitation of the example of Christ, and 
she even forbids cremation when it is done as a denial of the 
resurrection of the body.  Clearly burial practices often do reflect 
religious practices.  This leads to an important question:  Are there 
any reasons to believe that the Goths may have followed both 
matriarchal and patriarchal forms of paganism?
	I think there is one point that most of us would agree upon, 
that the Goths are a Germanic people.  Francis Owens, in his 
book "The Germanic People:  Their Origin, Expansion, and Culture" 
says:  "A result of the assimilation of two quite different cultures 
in the formation of the Germanic people was a mixture of two 
radically different religious systems:  sun worship or the worship of 
the Sky God on the one hand, and on the other the more earthly and 
more mysterious worship of Mother Earth, the Magna Mater" (page186).  
He goes on to say:  "Tacitus gives us some details of the Nerthus 
worship of the Ingvaeoni of the North.  This was a goddess of 
fertility; once a year, presumably at the spring festival, the 
goddess whose home was on an island, was drawn by cattle in a cult 
wagon, accompanied by self-scourging priests, to bless the land and 
make it fruitful.  After the ceremony was over the goddess was 
cleansed in the sea; the slaves performing the ceremony were put to 
death, ostensibly to preserve the secrecy of the ritual, but actually 
a survival of the ritual death of the male consort, the corn king, 
the dying and reviving god.  We have here a continuation of an age-
old ritual, and this confirms the suspicion that some of these 
symbols belonged not originally to the sun but to the Great Mother" 
(page 191).  If Balder's cremation allow us to think that cremation 
was associated with the worship of Wotan, then perhaps the idea of a 
corn king dying, being planted, and then reviving may reflect a 
similar idea behind inhumation among the Goths.  At any rate, both 
ideas were present among the Germanic peoples, and the Goths were a 
Germanic people.
	To conclude, I offer this quote from Francis Owens' 
book:  "We also hear in Tacitus of a people in the Scandinavian 
North, the Swioni, who have a queen instead of a king.  There is 
nothing strange about this if we regard it as a survival of an older 
matriarchal form of society, a form of society closely associated 
with the worship of the Great Mother.  Perhaps this tribe, owing to 
isolation, was not affected to the same extent as others by the 
patriarchal and sun-worshipping customs of the intruding Indo-
Europeans.  This remark of Tacitus is usually dismissed as being 
either unintelligible or insignificant.  It may be neither; it may be 
an important guide-post to the interpretation of the past of Germanic 
religious and social usage" (page 191).
Sincerely yours,
Cory  


--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hello Cory!
> How would you be able to determine from a given grave whether
> it was a mother or a father cult? 
> We have the same thing today, where cremation seems the most
> common, whereas some generations ago it was the opposite.
> But can you conclude from that, that we now have a cult of
> the opposite gender ?
> 
> The Basks also say "aita" for father, and the Turks "ata".
> Maybe this form is so common because it it an easy word to say
> for small childeren, whereas (presumably) an "f" would be
> more difficult. Old Frisian also has "aththa" for father,
> and so does Old Norse (atti). Also in ON "Atli" was a name
> of Þórr.
> 
> Best regards
> Keth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Hi Francisc,
> >        Concerning the word "attila", if I remember correctly, it 
is 
> >unattested in Gothic:  In other words, we don't know for sure what 
> >the Goths called Attila the Hun.  Since the word Etzel (Attila) is 
> >attested in Middle High German, perhaps the word is of Old High 
> >German origin, or as I said before, a shared word.
> >        Your point about the preference of Bishop Wulfila 
for "atta" 
> >instead of "fadar" is correct, but does it reflect a true 
linguistic 
> >preference, or a theological preference?  The presence of both 
> >cremation and inhumation in ancient pagan Gothic cemeteries may 
point 
> >to different cults among the Goths:  a male god for one, and 
perhaps, 
> >an earth-mother type goddess for the other.  If this is so, it may 
> >have had profound effects on the approach used by early Christian 
> >missionaries, and on the rates and patterns of conversions of the 
> >Goths to orthodox Christianity and to Arianism.  With regard to 
> >Bishop Wulfila and his choice of "atta" over "fadar", he may have 
> >chosen "atta" to avoid any suggestion of "alls fadar" or "all-
> >father", a title of Wotan.  Similarly Bishop Wulfila may have 
> >chosen "aithei" instead of "modar" to describe the Blessed Virgin 
> >Mary and other mothers, so as to avoid any suggestion of an earth-
> >mother goddess, such as Nerthus.
> >        As far as we know, almost all of the Gothic texts we have 
> >came either from Ostrogothic Italy or southern Germany.  It seems 
> >likely to me that the scribe who wrote  "fadar" instead of "atta" 
may 
> >have accidentally substituted the normal Gothic word for father.  
If 
> >so, then this single occurance may actually prove that the normal 
> >Gothic word for father was "fadar" and not "atta". 
> >        It is an unproven assumption that all of the words and 
> >structures common to Gothic and Old Bavarian are Gothic loans to 
Old 
> >Bavarian.  Old High German, especially Old Bavarian, and Gothic 
not 
> >only share a number of general vocabulary words, they also share 
some 
> >unique structure words, such as pronouns (which are rarely 
borrowed) 
> >and some inflectional endings; these unique sharings are connected 
to 
> >the very structure of the language, and are shared with no other 
> >Germanic language.  I would add that there are many other general 
> >vocabulary words, structure words, and inflections of Old High 
> >German, especially Old Bavarian, which are very near or identical 
to 
> >Gothic, but which are not considered as a sign of special 
> >relationship, since they are also shared with many other Germanic 
> >tongues.  This may be necessary from a scholarly point of view, 
but 
> >it is also misleading. 
> >        I hope to take up your other two points concerning the 
Gothic 
> >influx into Bavaria and the Gothic influence on Old Bavarian in a 
> >future posting.
> >Cory  
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In gothic-l at y..., "Francisc Czobor" <czobor at c...> wrote:
> >> Hi Cory,
> >> 
> >> --- In gothic-l at y..., Cory B Strohmier <corystrohmier at j...> 
wrote:
> >> > ... for example, Gothic has two words 
> >> for
> >> > "father":  "atta" and "fadar"; Old High German has "fater."  
> >Bishop
> >> > Wulfila wrote:  "Atta unsar"; the Old High German scribes 
wrote:  
> >> "Fater
> >> > unser."  The texts seem far apart.  Yet Bishop Wulfila could 
have
> >> > written:  "Fadar unsar,"  and the presence in Middle High 
German 
> >of 
> >> the
> >> > word "Etzel" (from Gothic Attila, meaning "Little Father") may 
> >point 
> >> to
> >> > an Old High German form of "atta", which may have dropped out 
as 
> >a 
> >> result
> >> > of the scribes choosing "Fater."  In any case, a comparision 
of 
> >the
> >> > actual texts would make the two languages seem further apart 
than 
> >> what
> >> > they actually are.
> >> > ...
> >> 
> >> In fact, Wulfila uses mostly "atta", and "fadar" appears only 
once 
> >in 
> >> the whole Silver Bible. The fact that the Goths preferred "atta" 
> >> instead of "fadar" is proved also by the fact that they called 
the 
> >> Hunish king Attila "little father", and not *Fadrila.
> >> The presence of "Etzel" in the Niebelungenlied is due, in my 
> >opinion, 
> >> not to the existence of an OHG correspondent of Gothic atta, but 
to 
> >> the borrowing of the name from the Gothic saga, together with 
> >Dietrich 
> >> (< Theodoric/Þiudareiks) etc. The shift t>tz is due, I think,
to 
> >the 
> >> fact that the word was borrowed into OHG at a time when the 
second 
> >> consonant shift was still active (around A.D. 500).
> >> Regarding the relationship of Gothic with OHG, especially Old 
> >> Bavarian, I wrote largerly in an earlier message to this list 
(no. 
> >> 2225). This relationship is however interpreted not through a 
> >Gothic 
> >> origin of OHG or Old Bavarian, but rather of a Gothic influence, 
> >that 
> >> was explained in two ways:
> >> 1. OHG owes a series of loanwords to Gothic, respectively to the
> >> Gothic mission and its influence on the High German, especially 
> >> Bavarian church language. 
> >> 2. According to other sources, since a Gothic mission in Bavaria 
is 
> >> not historically attested and few probable, having in view the 
> >> tolerance of the Arian-Gothic Christianity, the relations 
between 
> >> Gothic and southern OHG (especially O. Bav.) are more probably 
due 
> >to 
> >> the influence of Gothic-Christian population groups on the mixed 
> >> people of the Bavarians, that appeared suddenly about A.D. 500. 
> >> Probably that after the defeat of the Ostrogoths in Italy, some 
of 
> >> their remnants migrated northwards and participated in the 
> >> ethnogenesis of the Bavarian people, giving them some words and 
the 
> >> legend of Theodoric the Great (which became Dietrich von Bern in 
> >the 
> >> German mediaeval epic).
> >> 
> >> With best regards,
> >> 
> >> Francisc
> >
> >
> >
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