[gothic-l] Re: Sarmatians and Goths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Dirk,
> 
> Yes, I think my standpoint is consistent with
> the latest research. Could you refer to your
> sources. And give some more details on the
> important role the Sarmatians played until
> the 4th century?


Bertil,

I have cited the fact that the Romans dedicated numerous coin issues 
to the Sarmatians as indication that they may have regarded them as 
fairly important until the mid-5th century. These issues span a period 
of some 250 years, while only 4 small issues were made to account for 
the Goths and none was made to account for the Heruls. 

The Romans had the habit of accounting for virtually every military 
engagement that could vaguely be interpreted as a success with the 
minting of coins. Thus, we have coins for larger people like the 
Skythian Goths, Alamanns, Franks, Parthian, Iudeans, Gauls, Britains, 
Sarmatians etc.  but also for very small and little known people like 
the Carpians. (NB. issues with Germanicus or Victoria Germanica always 
refered to clashes with mostly Alamanns, but also Franks, Burgundians, 
Vandals and Suevi). However, the Romans never bothered to issue coins 
alluding to Heruls, which can only mean that they regarded them as too 
insignificant. 

For a disscussion of this subject see: B. Overbeck, "Rom und die 
Germanen - Das Zeugnis der Muenzen", Stuttgard 1985. 



> In my opinion coinage can only be one not very
> significant indication. 


Coins are after all written documents. Note, their are several Roman 
Emperors and historic events of which we only know through coin 
inscriptions. Maybe you want to expand on the reason why you think 
that they are not very significant.




>We know that Goths
> and Eruli provided a real threat to the Roman
> empire during the period 250 to 300 AD (of course
> later too resulting in the downfall of the Roman empire).



The question of the reason for the downfall of the Roman Empire is a 
very very big one. While people like the  Goths certainly played a 
part, the reasons for the fall of the Roman empire are far more 
complicated and derive from socio economic and internal political 
factors. Thus, the Goths (let alone the Heruls) have not caused the 
fall of Rome, but are only one of may visible symtomes of an empire 
that was weakened from within. 




> You seem to have partly misunderstood my contribution.
> I was referring to the 2nd century AD. 


Yes, that makes more sense. But you said that Sarmatian power waned on 
the arrival of Goths from Scandinavia. There is, general agreement 
that if some ancectors of the later Vistula Gutones came from 
Scandinavia that this would have taken place in the 1st century BC. 
That the Vistula Goths of the 2nd century -perhaps profitting from the 
strong involvement of the Sarmatians in the wars with Marcus Aurelius 
- may have succeed in reducing the power of the Sarmatians does sound 
plausible.




> some info on the real Sarmatian influence on the ground?
> Events, battles, kings that provide hard evidence of their 
influence.



As you well knew when you made this request, very little is known 
about  the Sarmatians, let alone their ruling dynasties, which is 
likely a result of their fierce independence from Rome. It is not  
even entirely clear what these Sarmatians were: one tribe, a union of 
tribes of different ethnic and/or linguistic components? Some authors 
have argued that Slavs made up parts fo the Sarmatians. At any rate, 
Rome was obviously engaged in military conflicts with the Sarmatians 
over a period of at least 250 years.


cheers
Dirk





Dr. Dirk Faltin



> 
> Bertil
> > Do we really know that? The Sarmatians were after all still very 
> > powerfull at the time of the so called Marcomannic-Sarmatian wars 
of 
> > Marcus Aurelius (late 2nd century AD) and continued to play an 
> > important role until at least the 4th century.
> > 
> > In fact, the Romans dedicated commemorative coins only to the most 
> > important of enemies. They only dedicated 4 very small coin issues 
to 
> > the Goths ('Victoria Gothica' of Claudius II, Quintilius and 
Tacitus) 
> > over a period of  about 30 years. To the Sarmatians ,the Romans 
> > dedicated some 45 coin issues, some of them very large, in the 
period 
> > from about 170AD (Sarmaticus, Victoria Sarmatica and Sarmatica 
> > Devicta to about 440AD (last issue 'Sarmatica devicta'). At least 
> > from a Roman point of view this could indicated that the 
Sarmatians 
> > were perceived to be more significant than the Goths for a longer 
> > period of time.  
> > 
> > At any rate, by the time when some ancestors of what would later 
> > become the 'Vistula Gutones' may have arrived from Scandinavia in 
the 
> > 1st century BC, the Sarmatians still seemed to have had a long and 
> > influencial period ahead of them.


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