[gothic-l] EE Jews descend from Goths
jdm314 at AOL.COM
jdm314 at AOL.COM
Wed May 9 04:55:40 UTC 2001
In a message dated 5/8/01 5:30:10 PM, you wrote:
<<I am sorry, Labovsky, but I feel these ideas are based upon
a lack of familiarity with Yiddish and German, and it would surprise
me if such an idea was actually found in Koestler's book.
The reason for my scepticism is that to me Yiddish appears
as much too closely related to normal German, for it to be
possible that it be in any way closer to Gothic than normal German
is. >>
I have to agree here. For all I know my East European Jewish family comes
from prosylitized Gothic-Sarmatian hybrids. This I cannot disprove. But one
thing I can emphatically and categorically state is that Yiddish is not
Gothic. (It is a shame, because David Salo and I were working on a
Judeo-Gothic language based on Wulfila and Yiddish... but this was always
intended to be a JOKE. See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/2131 )
People have repeatedly stated that Yiddish is a branch of High German,
and more broadly is a West Germanic language, whereas Gothic is an East
Germanic language. This might not mean much to a non-linguist, but these
categories are not arbitrary: they are based on genuine and easily
perceivible differences. To clarify this for non-linguists, here are some
illustrations using Standard High German, Standard Yiddish, and Wulfilan
Gothic. Crimean Gothic forms, where known, are given in parentheses.
The most obvious difference between the three languages is that Yiddish
and German (and indeed all Germanic languages except Gothic!) change
proto-Germanic *z to r, whereas Gothic either preserves it or changes it to
s, e.g.
German: mir er
Yiddish: mir er
Gothic: mis is (ies)
(Meaning for me he)
Another difference is that German and Yiddish turn voiceless stops (*p,
*t, *k) into fricatives or affricates in certain positions, whereas Gothic
keeps them:
German: zwei Salz ich
Yiddish: tsvey zalts ikh
Gothic: twa (tua) salt (salt) ik (ich)
(Meaning two salt I)
Also, Yiddish and German turn *th into d, and *d into t
German: du drei Tage
Yiddish: du dray tog
Gothic: thu (tzo) thrija (tria) dags (tag)
(Meaning you three day)
Yiddish and German both merge the *hw and *w sounds into [v] (but wtill
spelled witha <w> in German)
German: Wer will
Yiddish: ver vil
Gothic: hwas wilja
(Meaning who [I] want)
In all the changes so far, German and Yiddish have been the innovators,
wheras Gothic has been conservative. One notable exception to Gothic's
conservative nature is that it changes *o to u and *e to i, whereas Yiddish
and German keep those soudns separate:
German: Got geben
Yiddish: got gebn
Gothic: guth giban
(Meaning god to give )
Another nice excercize is to compare the conjugation of the verb "to be"
in the three languages:
German: sein: ich bin, du bist, er ist, wir sind, ihr seid, sie sind.
Yiddish: zaynen: ikh bin, du bist, er iz, mir zaynen, ir zayt, zey zaynen
Gothic: wisan: ik im, thu is, is ist, weis sijum, jus sijuth, eis sind
(Meaning to be: I am, you are, he is, we are, you are, they are)
These simple examples are just a few. As you become more familiar with
these three languages you will see that Yiddish and German are really quite
close when compared to Gothic. As a final example, let's compare the Austrian
phrases Angelique recently posted:
Austrian: Gotish was i net, ob i bin... oba bleib ma sche xund un lustig!
German: Gotish weisz ich nicht, ob ich bin... aber bleib mir auch schoen
gesund und lustig
Yiddish: Gotish veys ikh nit tsi bin ikh... ober blayb mir oykh gezunt un
(*lustik does not exist so far as I can tell)
Gothic: Gutiska ni wait ei sijau... ak bileiba mis haila jah swintha
Someone correct any errors in my Gothic... I haven't composed in a while.
You can see that when put into sentences the three German-type languages are
much more similar to each other than the Gothic example is.
Now of course you mention Busbecq's account of Crimean Gothic. Crimean
Gothic does indeed seem to be much more similar to German than "Classical"
Gothic, whether by convergent evolution, by borrowing, or simply by
contamination (as I recall Busbecq had two sources of which one was a Goth
and one was a German... and it was the German who spoke better Gothic!) ...
an excellent source on this topic is David Salo's post to this in some of the
Crimean forms actually being closer to Yiddish than one might expect, such as
"ich" and "tag," but for the most part Crimean does conform to Gothic ("ies",
"tua", "trija", "salt"... note also "ada" below, which is especially cogent.)
Just for fun I have taken all the useful words out of Mr. Salo's post and
added Yiddish to them. I will leave the analysis up to you, but it certainly
seems to me that Crimean Gothic (while definitely of East Germanic origin) is
much farther from Classical Wulfilan Gothic than Yiddish is from Standard
German. Despite some superficial simlarities, I don't think it's possible to
derive Yiddish from Gothic, even the Crimean variety.
Crimean Gothic Wulfilan Gothic High German Yiddish English
ada *addi Ei ey egg
alt altheis alt alt old
ano *hanjo Henne hun hen
apel *apals, *aplus? Apfel epl apple
athe ahtau acht akht eight
bars *bards Bart bord beard
boga *buga Bogen boygn bow
broe *brauth, -d- Brot broyt bread
bruder brothar Bruder bruder brother
brunna brunna Brunnen brunem well
fisct (*fisch) fisks Fisch fish fish
furdeithien fidwortaihun vierzig fertsik forty
fyder fidwor vier fir four
fyuf (*fynf) fimf fuenf finf five
geen [gaggan] gehen geyn go
goltz (*golth) gulth Gold gold gold
handa *handus Hand hant hand
hoef(*t) haubith, -d- Haupt hoypt head
hus -hus Haus hoyz house
ich ik ich ikh I
ies is er er he
ita ainata, ita? ein eyn one
kommen qiman kommen kumen come
kop *kuppa [stikls, aurkeis] (kopf) (kop) cup
lachen hlahjan lachen lakhn laugh
nyne niun neun nayn nine
oegene augona Augen oygn eyes
plut bloth, -d- Blut blut blood
reghen rign Regen rain
rinck, ringo *hriggs Ring ring ring
salt salt Salz zalts salt
schieten *skiutan schiessen shisn shoot
schlipen slepan schlafen shlufn sleep
schwester swistar Schwester shvester sister
seis saihs sechs zeks six
sevene sibun sieben zibn seven
silvir silubr Silber zilber silver
singhen siggwan singen zingen sing
stein (*stern) stairno Stern shtern star
sune sunna, sunno Sonne zun sun
tag dags Tag tog day
the sa, *tha der der the
tho so, *tho die di the
thiine taihun zehn tseyn ten
thurn daur, dauro Tor, Tuer tir door
tria thrija drei dray three
tua twa zwei tsvey two
tzo (*tho) thu du du thou
waghen *wagns Wagen vogn wagon
wingart weinagards? Weingarten? vayngortn [grapevine]
wintch winds Wind vint wind
Hope you've enjoyed this screed.
-Iusteinus
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