[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Estonians and Livs

[czobor at CANTACUZINO.RO]

Hi Bertil,

the languages of the Baltic (or Balto-Finnic) subgroup of the 
Finno-Ugric language group, such as Finnish, Estonian, Livonian, etc., 
and even Saami (Lappish) underwent a strong Germanic influence in the 
last two millenia. In Finnish and Estonian, for instance, there are 
many borrowings, mostly from Common-Germanic (the oldest ones, that 
can be found also in Lappish), Old Norse, Swedish, but also from Low 
German and Gothic. Such borrowings that are rather from Gothic than 
from other Germanic sources are, I think, for instance the Finnish 
words miekki "sword" (Goth. mekeis) and ja "and" (Goth. jah). I have 
no special information on Livonian, so I can't tell anything about the 
linguistic evidence of the presumed contact of the Livs with the 
Goths.
It is noteworthy to mention that there is evidence also about contacts 
between Goths and Finno-Ugrian peoples other than Balto-Finnic.
For instance, in Jordanes:
(116) "Soon Geberich, king of the Goths, departed from human affairs 
and Hermanaric, noblest of the Amali, succeeded to the throne. He 
subdued many warlike peoples of the north and made them obey his laws, 
and some of our ancestors have justly compared him to Alexander the 
Great. Among the tribes he conquered were the Golthescytha, Thiudos, 
Inaunxis, Vasinabroncae,Merens, Mordens, Imniscaris, Rogas, Tadzans, 
Athaul, Navego, Bubegenae and Coldae." (Getica XXIII)
The "Merens" and "Mordens" are identifiable with the Mari (Cheremis) 
and Mordvins, belonging to the Volgaic (Volga-Finnic) subgroup of the 
Finno-Ugric group.
(37) "Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the
Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our
oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest
races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called
Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. 
The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in 
the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad 
domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and 
betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri 
are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But 
they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors." (Getica IV)
The Hunuguri are identifiable either with the Turkic tribal 
confederation called Onogur, or with the Hungarians (Ugric subgroup of 
the Finno-Ugric group; in fact the names "Hungarian" and "Ugrian" are 
derived from "Onogur", because at a certain moment the old Hungarians 
were tributary to the Onogurs).

Finno-Ugrically,

Francisc


--- In gothic-l at y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Francisc,
> 
> Very interesting with these three loanwords
> from Slavic:
> 
> bala
> plats
> plinsjan
> 
> But what about the Estonians. I am relying on the book
> of the Estonian President August Rei (1886-1963), 
> _The Drama of the Baltic Peoples_ (1970). He writes:
> 
> "The south-western region of the lower Vistula
> and the upper Dniepr had been settled c. 2000 BC
> by the so called Baltic peoples, Lithuanians and
> Latvians who had opened the fertile moraine
> elevations for agriculture in what are now East
> Prussia, Lithuania and Kurland (should be Courland
> in English, note). The coast of the Kurland (Courland, note)
> peninsula and Livonia, north of Daugava, remained
> in the possession of a Finno-Ugric tribe, the Livs,
> north of whom the Estonians lived in the land they
> still inhabit." (p. 14).
> 
> So one wonders about the statement of Van Bree.
> Wouldn't it be more likely the Livs that were in contact
> with the Goths?
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil
> 
> 
> > There was also interaction between the Goths and Slavs.
> > The interaction was reciprocal, but asymmetric.
> > The Slavs borrowed heavily from Gothic.
> > The Goths borrowed only a few words from Slavic (bala "white 
horse", 
> > plats "patch, piece of cloth", plinsjan "to danse").


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