[gothic-l] Re: Yiddish is based on Ostrogothic

[czobor at CANTACUZINO.RO]

Dear Mr. Labkovsky,

I tried to send a replay today in the morning, but it failed because 
the Yahoo server was down. So I try to recompose it again.

Ostrogothic and Visigothic are not different languages, but dialects 
(with slight differences, if any) of the same Gothic language.
My arguments are:

1. Wulfila's Gothic Bible (written in Visigothic) was easily 
understood by the Ostrogoths and also by other East-Germanic peoples 
who adopted the Arianism (Vandals, Burgundians). The failure of the 
Franks to be converted to Arianism is explained, among other reasons, 
also by the fact that, Franconian being a West-Germanic language 
considerably different from Gothic, the Franks had difficulties in 
understanding the language of the Gothic Bible.

2. The language of the Gothic signatures on deeds of 6th century's 
Italy is obviously Ostrogothic, Italy being under the rule of the 
Ostrogoths at that time. Just look on them:

The Gothic signatures on the deed of Naples:

1. Ik Ufitahari papa ufm<el>ida handau meinai jah andnemum
   skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon miþ diakuna Alamoda
   unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .rk.
   wairþ þize saiwe.

2. Ik Sunjaifriþas diakon handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
   skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakona Alamoda
   unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .rk.
   wairþ þize saiwe.

3. Ik Merila bokareis handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
   skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakuna Alamoda
   unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .r. k.
   wairþ þize saiwe.

4. Ik Wiljariþ bokareis handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
   skilligngans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakona Alamoda
   unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilig<g>ans .r. k.
   wairþ <þ>ize saiwe.

The Gothic signature on the deed of Arezzo:

Ik Gudilub 'dkn' þo frabauhtaboka fram mis gawaurhta þus 'dkn'
Alamoda fidwor unkjane hugsis Kaballarja jah skilliggans .rlg.
andnam jah ufmelida.

They do not look like Yiddish at all, isn't it? In fact, their 
language is virtually identical to the language of the Gothic Bible, 
proving the fact that 4th century's Visigothic and 6th century's 
Ostrogothic are the same language, despite the two centuries between 
them.
You are stating that "The Gothic language according to the 
Encyclopedia Britannica is actually two different languages: the 
Ostrogothic and the Visigothic, similar to the Mandarin and Cantonese 
branches of the Chinese language." Which edition of the Encyclopaedia 
Britannica did you use? In Encyclopaedia Britannica 2001 Deluxe 
Edition on CD-ROM is written:
"Gothic occurred in two dialects: Ostrogothic (in eastern Europe and 
later in Italy) and Visigothic (in east central Europe and later in 
Gaul and Spain), grouped according to tribes."
So dialects, not different languages!!!
Regarding Busbecq's list of Crimean Gothic words, it looks like a 
contamination between Gothic and German (and Dutch) elements, fact 
explainable in several ways (settlement of Germans in Crimea, like the 
Saxons in Transylvania in 12th century, the influence of the language 
of Busbecq's informers, the influence of the language of Busbecq 
himself, the influence of the language of the editor of the list, 
etc.). There are on that list words that are clearly of Gothic origin 
(mine "moon", mycha "sword", ada "egg", tua "two", tria "three", fyder 
"four", schlipen "to sleep", menus [*mems] "meat", tzo [*tho] "thou", 
etc.) mixed with words that look rather High German (geen "go", tag 
"day", plut "blood", etc.), some Iranic words (Sarmatian?, rather 
Alanic; e.g. sada "hundred", hazer "thousand"), Turkic (telih "fool") 
as well as some words of dubious origin. A "weird language" indeed, 
isn't it? rather than the very regular language of the Gothic Bible!

These are my arguments. What are yours (excepting the "Haha")?

Francisc

--- In gothic-l at y..., l_labkovsky at h... wrote:
>  Now I know the reason for the confusion regarding the Gothic 
origins 
> of Yiddish. The Gothic language according to the Encyclopedia 
> Britannica is actually two different languages: the Ostrogothic and 
> the Visigothic, similar to the Mandarin and Cantonese branches of 
the 
> Chinese language. Mandarin speakers can't even understand the 
> Cantonese speakers. Back to Gothic, all existing Gothic texts 
> according to Britannica are of the Visigothic origin. And let me 
tell 
> you, this was one weird language, totally different from the 
> mainstream German. But the Ostrogothic language was quite similar to 
> the regular German and also Yiddish. If you read "The Thirteenth 
> Tribe" by A.Koestler he mentions an Israeli professor A.Poliak who 
> compared Ostrogothic words used by Crimean Goths and found them 
> similar to Yiddish words. You wouldn't accuse Poliak, a Jew, of 
> having nefarious intentions towards Jews, would you? And I don't 
want 
> to discuss u and i and a because you can go in circles all day long. 
> Look at the big picture. In order for Yiddish to come from Middle 
> High German you first have to prove that German Jews arrived in 
> Eastern Europe in any significant numbers and no such proof exists. 
> Ostrogoths and Sarmatians however already lived in Ukraine. Haha!


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