[gothic-l] Re: More on the Gothic-Slavic link

[Oskar Andersson]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dirk at smra.co.uk>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:39 PM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: More on the Gothic-Slavic link


> --- In gothic-l at y..., andreas.schwarcz at u... wrote:
> > Dear Sigmund and dear Dirk,
> > as Sigurd wrote himself, he confused Jordanes and Adam of 
> > Bremen. Helmold of Bosau cites in his turn again Adam of Bremen, 
> > Gesta Hammaburgenis Ecclesiae Pontificum, lib.2, cap.21:
> > 
> > Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis 
> > incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Wandali, decies maior esse fertur 
> > quam nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans 
> > Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in 
> > partem adieceris Sclavaniae. ... Eius latitudo est a meridie in 
> > boream, hoc est ab Albia fluvio usque ad mare Scythicum. 
> > Longitudo autem illa videtur, quae initium habet ab nostra 
> > Hammaburgensis parochia et porrigitur in orientem infinitis aucta 
> > spatiis usque in beguariam, Ungriam et Greciam.
> > 
> > Helmold, Chronica Slavorum, cap.2:
> > 
> > Ubi igitur Polonia finem facit, pervenitur ad amplissimam Slavorum 
> > provinciam, eorum qui antiquitus Wandali, nunc autem Winithi sive 
> > Winuli appellantur. Horum primi sunt Pomerani, quorum sedes 
> > portenduntur usque ad Odoram.
> > 
> > As you can see for yourself, both Adam and Helmold are learned 
> > clerics from the high middle ages, who show off their erudition by 
> > citing the ancient Vandals, by then dead and extinct for half a  
> > millenium. This is quite the established way to cite ancient peoples 
> > in ethnographic descriptions in the high middle ages and to equate 
> > them with contemporary peoples. You will be shortly able to read 
> > how the Vandals were treated in medieval and early modern 
> > literature in the Neue Pauly, because my young Viennese collegue 
> > Steinacher wrote the relevant lemma about them for this new 
> > encyclopedia and this volume it is just being printed. Both Adam 
> > and Helmold are primarily interested in the conversion of the Slavs 
> > living east of the river Elbe and their Slavinia reflects the ethnic 
> > situation in the high middle ages, when wide parts of Northern 
> > Germany were inhabited by Slavic peoples. For that I would 
> > recommend Joachim Herrmann, die Slawen in Deutschland. Berlin 
> > 1972, and Welt der Slawen. München 1986. 
> > By the way, the Vandals, were not Goths, but the Gutones seem 
> > to have been under Vandal dominance for some time. 
> > Archeologically the Vandals are sought in the area of the so-called 
> > Przeworsk culture, the Goths in the Wielbark culture east of it 
> > during their first centuries of existence.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> >                        Andreas Schwarcz   
> 
> 
> Dear Andreas,
> 
> yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your other 
> explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that Helmold's 
> mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the same way? 
> As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century, another 
> explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar 
> sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg) also 
> seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel. 

Dirk, how do you mean that the Heruls didn't exist in the 6th century? 
I admit that I am not all too familiar with Herluian history, so I'd appreciate 
a brief explanation!
And please, could you recommend some book on Herulian history, or at least 
some book that partly consider their history?

Swedish or English, or German, although it is hard for me to pick up German books!

Thanks,
Oskar



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