[gothic-l] Re: Early Germanic place-names in today Poland

[Ryszard Derdzinski]

Dirk wrote:

> I think one ineresting conclusion,
if indeed Babik's etymologies are correct, would be that at least
some Germanic people stayed in the area of modern Poland long after
the Goths, Vandals etc. are supposed to have left. Thus, the bulk of
Goths and Vandals are believed to have left the areas between Vistula
and Oder sometime at the end of the 2nd century, which is by and
large supported by archaeological evidence. Yet, Slavs have arrived
there only around 500AD. To explain the name continuity, some sort of
contact must have taken place and small groups of ancient Germans
seemed to have stayed in their homelands until the arrival of the
Slavs.

My answer:

You are right, and your suggestion is supported by Old Norse and Old English
sources which tell about the Goths who lived near Vistula river in the time
of the Hunnic invasion (in 4th c.). In "Hervarar saga ok Heidreks konungs"
(from 12 c.?) we read about Heidrek, king of _Hræiþgotar_ (i.e. OE _Hræd_)
who was killed near Hervaþa Mountains (Carpathian Mountains?). A king after
him was his oldest son Angantýr who ruled in _Arheim_. His brother Hlødr,
who spent many years among Huns (their king was his grandfather), came to
Angantýr's court for his heirloom. He wanted from his brother, Angantýr -

"great forest
whose name is Myrkvidr;
that holy grave,
which lays in the land of Goths;
that beautiful stone
which stands on the banks of river Danpar..."

Angantýr rejected Hlødr's claim and the war began between Hlødr's Huns and
the Hræiþgotar of Angantýr. The battle field is described in the saga as
follows:

"Go [for war]
to Dunheidr,
under old
mountains of Jassar [_Jassar fjollum_].
There the Goths often
fought the wars...".

Many authors have tried to localize the battle-field _Dunheidr_, which can
be translated as "heath (on high ground) of Dun-". The element _Dun-_ was
explained as rivers _Danube_ or _Don_, or as a Polish river _Dunajec_ (this
name according to Babik cannot be earlier than 6th c. and it comes from
_Dunaj_, Slavic version of Danube). Some authors tried also to connect it
with Ptolemy's _Lugi Diduni_ who lived in today southern Poland ("infra quos
Lugi Diduni usque ad Asciburgium montem").

Another source indicates that the _Hræiþgotar_ (OE _Hræd_ Goth.
_*Hreiþgutans_?) lived in today Poland. It's Old English "Widsith", where we
can read about Wulfhere (Goth. _*Wulfhari_) and Wyrmhere (Goth.
_*Waurmhari_?) who were probably the chieftains of the _Hræda here_ 'army of
the Hræd'. According to "Widsith" the _Hræda here_ had to defend their old
land (OE _edelstol_ 'hereditary seat, habitation; royal city, chief city')
against Attila's people (OE _Ætlan leodum_) near _Wistla wudu_ or 'forest of
the Wistla'. The word _Wistla_ is here the people-name, because the
river-name is _Wis(t)le_, not _Wis(t)la, in OE. It's a very interesting and
unique literary source which tells us about the Goths still living in the
Wistula region in the beginning of the period of great migrations in 5th and
6th cc. We can see that the name _Hræiþgotar_ (OE _Hræd_ Goth.
_*Hreiþgutans_?) or 'Famous Goths' (some authors translate it as
'Nest-Goths', 'Homeland-Goths') was sometimes used to describe the Goths who
still lived in today Poland in the late antiquity. From them the new settled
Slaves could learn many names of the rivers and other place-names. Finally
the Germanic peoples (Goths, Vandals, Heruls, etc.) lost their identity and
language in the succeeding waves of the Slavic migrations in 5th, 6th and
7th cc. I can imagine neighbouring villages of Germanic *Wistulós_ and
Slavic *Vislany on the banks of River Vistula in the beginning of this
period.

Yours,

Reikhardus
(Ryszard Derdzinski)

maggot at saba.wns.us.edu.pl or galadhorn at inetia.pl

"Gwaith-i-Phethdain" http://www.elvish.org/gwaith
"Polish Tolkien Society" http://www.parmadili.w.pl
"Silesian Homeland" http://necik.mag.com.pl/~galadhorn/slask/index.htm
"Sindarin Dictionary": http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/gobeth.htm



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