[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Ingemar Nordgren 
<ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> 
> Since I have had a serious computer crash I have a lot to read to 
catch 
> up. I noticed however the religious quarrel. I can agree with 
Albareiks 
> that not many god scientific arguments have been presented except 
of  by 
> Dirk and George  and partly also Aelfric.
> 
> I think you must keep certain borders between different factions as 
well 
> as between Christianity and "Heathendom". Everything must be 
properly 
> defined. First I will state that I not use heathen or pagan as 
being 
> negative expressions from one faith against other confessors. I use 
> Christian and non-Christian in that case. It means that practisers 
of 
> Nordic Fornsiðr is quite comparable with confessors of  Islam, 
Mosaic 
> religion, Hinduism et c. This is important in the discussion of 
> tolerance towards "pagans". It is a fact that the Arians in 
Theoderics 
> Italy and the Visigothic Arian kings were quite tolerant towards 
> confessors of non-Christian faiths. 



Hello Ingemar,

agreed the Arian kings of Italy and Spain were remarkably tolerant 
towards other confessions. However, this was neither a key 
characteristic of Arianism nor was a sort of general characteristic 
of Goths. In fact, it was pure politics. They recognised that they 
were a minority, a very small minority and to maintain their position 
they could not afford making internal enemies.





In Spain even the king had regular 
> meetings with a Mosaic counsil to ease for the Jews to practice 
their 
> religion. The same tolerance was shown in the pre-Christian society 
in 
> Visigothic Dacia to most  Christians. In Dacia only Christian Goths 
were 
> persecuted but not Romans and other foreigners being members of the 
> Visigothic society. In Spain the persecutions of Jews started with 
the 
> conversion to Catholicism when the later kings tried to gain 
influence 
> in Rome and hence did what the pope told them. 



I also agree here. The Visigothic kings wanted to improve their 
relationship with Rome and wanted to be seen doing something 
against 'non-Christians'.

<snip>


 
> In Dacia there were several churches inclusive Catholicism and 
Wulfilas 
> Arianism but only a minority of the Goths were Christian.  In 
Crimea the 
> Greek ortodox church was in majority and the population was mixed 
with 
> both Greeks and Goths. Those Goths never took part in the later 
> establishing of Gothic kingdoms. Wulfila was forced to move till 
Moesia 
>  and there he lived with his followers, the Gothi Minores, and 
wrote his 
> translation of the gospel. He did accordingly not convert many 
Goths to 
> Arianism.
> 
> The reason the Christiuan Goths were persecuted was political when 
the 
> kindins tried to keep the people together with help of the cult-
their 
> only real ethnicity. The language was  not a strong enough a  
factor to 
> keep them going together with a lot of outside influence, and a 
> composition of  the  Gothic population from a multi-ethnic origin. 
After 
> having, of political reasons, accepted Arian Christianity for 
protection 
> by Valens and his troops behind limes they crossed into Roman 
territory 
> in 376. With them they brought, as earlier remarked, the idols and 
holy 
> relicts of every singel kunja (tribe) carried by a priest and a 
> priestess. That much for the converted  astute Christian Goths 
crossing 
> the limes. It took a long time before Christianity was accepted by 
the 
> people more than just formally. The treatment they got by the 
Romans, 
> leading to Adrianopolis,was not directly a carrot to ease them into 
> beleive. When Teodosius edict was issued after the consilium in 
> Constantinople in 382 the Goths stayed Arian. This was both a 
political 
> gesture to keep the ethnicity - now with Arianism differing them 
from 
> the Roman world - and I think also a result of the close symbolic 
> connection between the Arian confession  and the cult of Óðinn-
Gaut. In 
> Odinism the king is a descendant of Óðinn, he is initiated by 
stabbing 
> and hanging and is symbollically dead and resurrected as a human. 
Jesus 
> is son of God, is crucified (hanged) and stabbed and again 
resurrected 
> (as a human as understood by the Gothic commonship). This was easy 
to 
> understand and associate oneself with and hence could be 
politically 
> used by the reiks to glue the people together. Read also 
J.Zeiller "Les 
> origines chrétiennes dans les provinces danubiennes", Paris 1918.
> 
> As I remarked above the conversion to Catholicism brought the 
Gothic 
> ethnicity in dissolution and  Gothic landowners made often common 
sake 
> with Roman landowners against the Visigothic king and this resulted 
in 
> internal warfare and a weak kingship following the papal dictates 
via 
> the councils of Toledo. 




Hmmm, for me this explanation is too simple. The Visigothic elites 
had quarreled among each other for many decades prior to their 
conversion to Catholicism. They had regularly killed their kings  and 
each other and Arianism was no obstacle to that.








There was no longer a remaining Gothic identity 
> and so the realm was chrushed by the Arabs bringing back a little 
> religious  tolerance once again. 


I see this differently. I think the Visigoths had from the outset 
failed to create an integrated strong kingship as did the Franks in 
Gaul. So when the threat of Arab invasion arrived their were not many 
willing to fight for this kingdom. Also, you could argue that the 
cruel measures against the Jews and other groups had given the fading 
Visigothic kingdom a new lifeline. These measures brought great 
wealth into the coffers of the state, as can be seen by the very 
large number of coins in the name of Sisebutus and Suintilha. These 
kings used the money to reestablish Visigothic control over the whole 
peninsula, pushing out the last Byzantine strongholds. 







The Arian kings still were tolerant 
> also tovards Catholic citicens including Goths, but tried to keep 
their 
> number low (of political reasons). I must however add that the 
Vandals 
> were not tolerant, depending on local political reasons, 



Very true, Vandalic Arianism was not a bit tolerant, which shows that 
tolerance was not inseperably linked to Arianism and especially was 
tolerance not linked to Germanic ethnicity. What mattered were 
political concerns, which determind the course of action. 






> but the 
> Goths,Burgundians and Langobards were indeed. 


The Burgundians were far too few in Sapaudia to be anything but 
tolerant. They sought complete integration into the local society 
from the outset and quickly shifted to adopt the Catholicism of the 
majority population. The Langobards were not exactly very tolerant. 
In fact, they were notorious for looting churches and killing 
priests. Also, Langobards were only 'sort-of Arians'. From very early 
on Catholicism played an equal role, through the influence of the 
Bavarian Theudelinde.






Something similar can be 
> said later of the Normandic kingdom of Sicily that immediately was 
> attacked by the pope and finally chrushed in a so called crusade in 
1266 
> like the poor Cathars and Albingenses.



Surely, this Normannic kingdom was not Arian, and the war that was 
waged against it was not really religious. 





> Roman Catholicism all the time 
> seems to be another word for intolerance. 


I think that this is a gross over simplification, of a question that 
is highly complex and not really suitable for discussion on this list.



> Read about this Visigothic 
> problem e.g. Dietric Claude "Geschichte der Westgoten" 1970. 


I'll start reading this next week. Just received the copy. 



I know that 
> both Heather and  our honoured friend Andreas has treated Gothic 
> religion but not this very aspect as far as I recall.
> 
> Finally I would like to wish to everybody
> 
> A Very Good  Yule and a happy New Year/God Jul och Gott Nytt År/ 
> Weihnachtsgrüsse und schön Neujahr/ Joyeux Noël et une Bonne 
Nouvelle Année!
> 
> Ingemar



Merry Christmas to you too!

Dirk 


You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/