[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Ethnogenesis

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Tore,
> >
> >many authors wrote a lot of things 'as a matter of fact'. And if 
this
> >was in the 1950s this explaines a lot. 300BC is far to early to 
have
> >anything to do with the Goths and the Wielbark culture. The 
Wielbark
> >culture emerged only at the end of the first century BC and it did
> >not emerge as the result of inward migration, but because of 
cultural
> >and social developments emanating from the south. Also, the
> >predecessor cultures of the Wielbark culture are autochonous.
> >
> >If Nerman was able to show a migration from Gotland to the Vistula 
he
> >will have provided archaeological evidence, in form of pottery 
types,
> >burial customs etc. The fact that no modern archaeologist seems to
> >know about this evidence or refer to this evidence I would be
> >extremely cautious about its validity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  We can during many centuries B.C. detect close contacts between
> >>  Gotland and those areas.
> >
> >
> >How? What is the evidence?
> >
> >
> >
> >>  I agree that when the Gothic culture is formed everybody are in
> >>  agreement that it is from people occupying areas close to the
> >Vistula.
> >>  However we never talk about from where those different groups
> >>  originated centuries before.
> >
> >
> >>From exactly the same areas. The Wielbark culture and all its
> >predecessor Iron Age cultures were autochonous to the area.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>  Nach Professor Birger Nerman, Fornvännen 1954, Seite 274:  Aber 
die
> >>  Verbindungen Skandinaviens während der jüngeren Bronzezeit 
galten
> >>  Gebieten noch weiter im Osten als Ostrußland, und hier kommt vor
> >>  allem Gotland in Frage. Besonders galten diese Verbindungen dem
> >>  Kaukasus, wo zu der in Frage kommenden Zeit eine offensichtlich
> >>  reiche Kultur blühte."
> >
> >
> >So Nerman said that Scandinavia had contacts with East Russia and 
the
> >Caucasus in the late Bronze Age, but what has that to do with the
> >Goths?
> >
> >
> >
> >>  Man darf sich vorstellen, daß sich gotländische Händler während 
der
> >>  jüngeren Bronzezeit auf Wege südlich und südöstlich der Ostsee
> >>  begeben haben.
> >
> >
> >It is certainly possible that Gotlandic traders of the Bronze Age
> >ventured to the southern coast of the Baltic, just as traders from
> >the southern Baltic coast will have come to Gotland.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Auch Leute aus anderen Teilen des Nordens haben wohl
> >>  diese Wege  aufgesucht, aber in bedeutendem Maße wurden die
> >östlichen
> >>  Einflüsse sicherlich von den Gotländern an die anderen Stämme im
> >>  Norden vermittelt."
> >>
> >>  Dr Vello Lougas writes in "Kontakter mellan Skandinavien och
> >>  Östeuropa innan Vikingatiden"Die östliche Kontaktzone zwischen
> >>  Skandinavien und den finno-ugrischen Stämmen ist das obere und
> >>  mittlere Wolgagebiet. Besonders die Mariregion ist interessant, 
was
> >>  das mittlere Gebiet angeht. Es erscheint völlig klar, daß die
> >>  Verbindungen zwischen Skandinavien und dem Wolgagebiet während 
des
> >>  Endes der Bronzezeit und dem Beginn der Eisenzeit direkt gewesen
> >>  sind."
> >
> >
> >Again, I cannot see what trade links between Scandinavia and the
> >Wolga region in the Bronze Age have to do with the Goths.
> >
> >Dirk
> >
> 
> 
> Dirk,
> Your problem is that you limit yourself to very narrow areas. You 
> must look more at the broad lines.
> 
> There are proof of Gotlandic trading colonies in Balticum during 
the 
> Bronze age and from time to time up to the Middle Ages.
> 
> That means that there are probably close links between these areas. 
> The people who moved out become locals.
> The culture flows both directions. That we can see in the 
archaeological finds.
> 
> You see it even today that people move and become locals.
> 
> When the Wielbark culture is formed it absorbs the people within a 
> certain area under some forceful leaders. And it develops from 
there. 
> Who these leaders were and from where they came we don't know.
> 
> Tore


Tore,

this is still not how the ethnogenesis of the Goths and the emergence 
of the Wielbark culture is presented by modern archaeologists. Since 
I am not an expert myself I simply prefer to rely on the findings and 
interpretations of the people who deal with these matters 
professionally. 

If you have not already done so, I recommend you read the relevant 
articles by Volker Bierbrauer and A. Kokowski (mentioned earlier on 
the list) or the historical interpretation by Walter Pohl in the 
Reallexikon der Germanischen Alterumskunde. Andreas also mentioned a 
number of archaeologists who support the same views.

cheers,
Dirk 








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