[gothic-l] Re: Trailing the Eruli in the North - solidi

[troels_brandt]

Dirk,

Thank You. I agree in your conclusions below. This points east-wards.

However this appear to be opposite the conclusions of the
Scandinavian archaeologists claiming the change of Scandinavian
culture 450-570 AD to derive from Franks and Alamans - and maybe
Lombards and Anglians. Their conclusions are based on weapons,
burials and style-elements.

Some few of the archaeologists mention that such characteristics were
also found in Bavaria - Moravia - Pannonia - Dacia before the Slavs
and Avars arrived. Some of the style-elements were originally
Byzantine.

I do not want to draw further conclusions before analyzing the
theoretical possibilities. Heruls, Gepides and maybe Lombards are
obvious, but other combinations and explanations should be taken in
consideration, as this is not just a question about the migration of
one single group in 512.

Troels




--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > Dirk,
> >
> > The map you mentioned below was realy a help showing that
> > Constantinople probably was the mint of the Empire with the
easiest
> > access to the Danube except for the Ostrogothic mints -
especially
> as
> > the smaller one in Thessalonica first opened in 498 AD.
> >
> > I also looked at other pages at that site (Smithsonian Museums)
> > finding this statement:
> >
> > "Constantinople was by far the most prolific and longest lasting
of
> > Byzantine mints.  The mint mark CONOB had become fixed on gold
> solidi
> > as gold was only struck at Constantinople during the reigns of
> > Anastasius I and Justin I;
>
>
>
> it appears on most subsequent Byzantine
> > gold coins regardless of whether or not they were actually struck
> at
> > the capital. This was not the case with the subsidiary
denomintions
> > in bronze. Variations of the mint mark include CON, CONOB, CONOS
> and
> > COB."
> >
> > Is all this correct?
>
>
>
> Troels,
>
> yes, but the text is refering to the Eastern Empire.

So I also understood the text.

 Gold was minted
> by several mints during the reign of Anastasius I and Justing I. In
> fact, all gold coins of Theoderic the Great, minted at Rome and
> Ravenna are in the names of these two emperors. The mint-mark CONOB
> was indeed used by other East Roman and Byzantine mints other than
> Constantinople. Rome used the mint mark COMOB, and more rarely
ROMOB,
> COMOR etc.
>
>
>
> > If we then assume, that golden solidi from around 500AD and the
> > previus two decennies brought to Sweden from the Danube area were
> not
> > Ostrogothic, we should in my opinion expect them to be stamped
with
> > the mark from Constantinopel - which you actually told they are.
> >
> > This is also what I understand from your more cautious text
below,
> > but to be sure, as I have not studied this area: Do you agree, if
> my
> > assumption regarding payments from the Ostrogoths is correct?
>
>
>
> The fact that all solidi found in Sweden (with Gotland) are from
> Constantinopel underscores that Scandinavia had some form of
contact
> with the East Roman empire. The complete absence of Ostrogothic
gold
> coins and coins minted under Odoaker should be indicative of the
fact
> that they had no or little contact with Italy. In fact, no western
> coins (Visigothic, Frankish, Frisian etc) have come to light in
> Scandinavia in general, which may point to a general east-ward
> orientation.
>
>
>
>
> > As the solidi in Scandinavia are all from Constantinopel and none
> > from the Ostrogoths it is in my opinion indicated that this is
not
> > due to various trade routes, but due to one or more specific
> > connections/reasons.
>
>
>
> I think the fact that all Scandinavian solidi are from
Constantinopel
> partly reflects the fact that Constantinopel produced by far the
> largest amounts of such coins. To determine why and how these coins
> reached Scandinavia, I suppose it would be necessary to study the
> exact composition and nature of the finds. Tore told us that solidi
> hoards on Gotland presented accumulations of raw-materials for gold-
> smiths. I think that the solidi hoards should also be seen in
> relation to other metal hoard, such as the big Skoevde hoard, which
> contained 7 kilos of gold bars and rods.
>
> One reason why a 5th/6th century trader might have prefered
> Constantinopel coins over the west European coins made by Franks,
> Visigoths and Burgundians, is the high level of stability in gold
> content. Visigothic and Frankish coins were often underweight. The
> same is however not true for Ostrogothic (i.e. Italian) gold coins.
> They also maintained full weight and purity. However, I simply
think
> that Scandinavians had better access to East Roman coins than to
> coins of western mints.
>
> One example of different trade links may be Britain. Here, many
> Frankish trientes, some Ostrogothic and even some Visigothic coins
> have been found, which obviously reflects Britain's geographic
> proximity to these areas and the corresponding trade links. Gold
> coins from the Constantinopel mints on the hand have hardly ever
come
> to Britain.
>
>
> Dirk+
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Troels
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Troels,
> > >
> > > the following link takes you to a map of the Byzantine/East
Roman
> > > mints.
> > >
> > > http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/nnc/byzant/imapmint.htm
> > >
> > > The map states a timeframe from 498 to 1453. However, the main
> > mints
> > > were the same in the period 450 to 500. Of course, Carthage was
> > ruled
> > > by the Vandals at that time and the Italian mints were under
> > > Ostrogothic control from 488 or so. Also, the mints of Sirmium
in
> > > Pannonia is omitted on the map. But it was a very minor mint
and
> > > operative only from about 504 after closing at the end of the
4th
> > > century. Also, missing are most of the western mints of greater
> > > significance, like Arles and Lyon, but especially Milan. Trier,
> > which
> > > was a major mint in the 4th century seized operations in the
> early
> > > 5th century. Also missing are all the Frankish and Visigothic
> mints
> > > like Toulouse, Bordeaux, Cologne, Marseille etc.
> > >
> > > I think it it fair to say that the vast majority of gold coins
> > minted
> > > in the 5th century would have been produced by Constantinopel,
> > > Ravenna, Rome and Milan. Of these Milan and Ravenna would have
> been
> > > the northern-most.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Dirk


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