[gothic-l] Two Peoples

[Tore Gannholm]

>--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
>  But many Ostrogoths remained in the East
>>  and
>>  later after 450 AD established the Second Great
>>  Gothic
>>  Kingdom in the east. This was later referred to as
>>  Rus.
>
>*****GK: This is sheer fantasy. The Gothic remnants in
>the East did establish a statelet in the mountainous
>area of the Crimea (just east of the Byzantine
>holdings around Chersonesos). The tiny scattered
>communities which remained behind on the rest of the
>territory of contemporary Ukraine were absorbed by the
>Slavs, while contributing some names to the leaders of
>the 6th c. Antes and Sclaveni. The major state here
>after 450 AD was that of the Late Huns, the so-called
>Ulchindurs, and it is the Slavicized aristocratic
>clans of the latter which provided the nucleus for the
>political foundation legend of Kyivan Rus' (Kyi,
>Schek, and Khoryv were Ulch dynasts of the late 5th
>and early 6th c.). The Primary Chronicle of Rus'
>recognized the Goths as a "Varangian" nation, but
>attributed no role to them in the emergence of the
>state. Gothic merchants from the Crimea were still
>active (along with many other foreigners) at the court
>of the Volynian Prince Volodymyr in the 1280's. The
>Crimean "Gothia", by then almost completely
>hellenized, was conquered by the Turks in 1475. To
>view Kyivan Rus' as "the Second Great Gothic Kingdom
>in the east" is completely irresponsible, to say the
>very least.*******
>


Some sources say there was a small remnant still during Karharina the Great.
She replaced them with the Tartars?
Read:
AA Vasiliev, The Goths in the Crimea. Mediaeval academy of America,
Publication N:o 25, Cambridge Mass. 1936

Tore
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