[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > > Yes, Tore
> > > 
> > > people.
> > 
> >   Hæ Dirk.  Would you then call the Heruli going to Scandinavia; 
> > North Germanic people?? If so, then the Ostrogoths were North 
> > Germanic people too??
>  
> Hi Einar,
> 
> the eastern Heruls are certainly East Germanic as were the 
Ostrogoths.

 Einar;.. Hæ Dirk.                                                  

      Of course it is such.I did not claim otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> > In my view the Heruli group going to Scandinavia must be 
classified 
> > as East Germanic people just like the Ostrogoths are classified 
as 
> > such.
> > The Heruli settled among East Scandinavian people. Anyway I think 
> > that it is generally accepted by scholars that this Heruli 
> migration 
> > took place. 
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, if a group of Heruls did settle in Scandinavia they have 
not 
> made the Scandinavians into East Germanic people. Old Nordic 
> languages remain completely North Germanic.

  Einar; Nobody said that they made East Scandinavians into East 
Germanic people. Neither me not Barði claims so.                      
To my knowledge there were language changes in Scandinavia happening 
at a rather big scale in the sixth century. This info I have from 
some posts on Germ or Gothic-L.  
If these changes in language were indeed happening in Scandinavia in 
the sixth century on some reasonably big scale then it is normal to 
assume that one of the explanations could be because of a substantial 
influx of newcomers. That is maybe the Heruli.

Anyway language is difficult to use here as any proof of anything. 
Icelandic is and was a Scandinavian language even though maybe as 
much as 40-45% of the settlers were Celts or of a Celtic ancestry.
Languages do obviously not mix in some proportion to the ancestry of 
the settlers or imigrants. Just a few procent of Icelandic words are 
from the Celts.
> 
> Secondly, the whole episode is based on the mentioning of one, 
> difficult to use author, while no evidence, especially not for a 
> large scale settlement of East Germanic people in Scandinavia 
exists. 
> I had contact with two Swedish archaeologists recently, who both 
> reject any notion of East Germanic settlements in Scandinavia. I 
know 
> others will disagree and we don't need to go over it again. 
> 
> Thirdly, for such a poorly attested incident 'generally accepted by 
> scholars' means very little. It is clearly one of these episodes 
> where you either choose to believe or dis-believe as no evidence is 
> available to corroborate the claim conclusively.
> 
> Finally, what you call 'generally accepted' is often nothing more 
> than no direct opposition. Most scholars who do not object to this 
> passage have not specifically investigated these events either, but 
> only mentioned it in passing. And when they mention it, they make 
it 
> clear that it was a very small group of Heruls that may have 
ventured 
> north. You will also find that these scholars don't base any 
further 
> historic events in Scandinavia on this supposed migration. Also, no 
> serious Scandinavian history book that I have seen even mentiones 
> this Herulic migration.
> 
> BTW, as for the numbers provided by Procopius, and which was cited 
to 
> support the large or significant number of Heruls that supposedly 
> went to Thule, a classical philologist recently pointed out to me 
> that the number 200 for the entourage of the Thule-Herulic prince 
who 
> returned to Illyria, is not believable but just another topos. 200 
> was apparently the standard size for a king's following. It was 
also 
> the number given for the retainers of an Alamannic king and also 
> appears in other Roman sources. It is, according to this 
philologist, 
> not based on real knowledge by Procopius and cannot be taken as 
> indication for the size of the Herulic group in Thule.

  Einar; The numbers do not matter. At least there must have been a 
rather big groups of warriors following the prince to protect him.    
How many exactly does not matter. Interpretation of the above can be 
done in many various ways.
> 
> 
> 
> > I understand it so after reading the posts on Germ. and 
> > Gothic-L.And they settled among East Scandinavian people.
> > So when you say that East Germanic people has nothing to do with 
> > East 
> > Scandinavian people then you must be expressing your privat 
opinion.
> 
> 
> I always express my private opinion.
> 
> 
> > Most scholars do not seem to agree with you.
> 
> 
> 'Most scholars' have not studied these events, analysed Procopius 
or 
> areas that could provide supportive evidence. 'Most scholars' 
tacitly 
> accept it as true, because as A. Cameron (the main expert on 
> Procopius) wrote, they don't want to forego other information 
> provided by Procopius. 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is - and 'all' serious scholars will agree - that 
> East Scandinavians are not East Germanic, but North Germanic.

 Einar; Once again. I never said so. Even for the supposed Heruli 
migration they would still be East Scandinavians but part of them 
could then trace their ancestry to East Germanic people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> >  ***  What shortcomings specifically are you talking about? 
> > And have you read his book?
> 
> 
> Fristly, I think this is not the venue to discuss the 'origin of 
> icelanders'. Secondly, I have not read the book, and I am not 
> planning to do so. From your presentation of the content, i.e. 
Heruls 
> moving to Iceland -which 'most scholars' would absolutely disagree 
> with- I gathered that I would not be interested in the book.

  ******Einar; Then I will politely assume  that you do not know what 
you are talking about when criticising his writings.

  Bless,bless. Einar.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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