[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East-Migration period legends.

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi 
> > > 
> 
> Hi Einar,
> 
> You mean that this polyethnic band of Eruli -containing all kinds 
of 
> Hunnic, Sarmtian and other elements- possessed 'professional story-
> tellers or poets who transmitted these stories to Scandinavia?

****Hæ Dirk.                                                          

     They did indeed. Professionals who preserved 
laws,poets,genealogies,legends,and etc. important for the tribe. I 
think it is commonly accepted that Germanic tribes preserved such 
material orally. Of course they did and people had to be trained to 
to so. That is obvious from skaldic poetry. Skills and training were 
needed.
> 
> 
> 
> > The Heruli being the transmitters are simply the bext explanation 
> we 
> > have. 
> 
> 
> That is very subjective. Remember that these stories were written 
> down many centuries after the events, especially in Scandinavia. In 
> the meantime, we have no way of knowing in what form they were 
passed 
> on until one gifted writer took up the various characters and 
> fragments to compose his works.                                   

 *****Einar; yes we have. They were preserved orally. There was no 
other alternative.

The Hildebrandslied which was written 
> down in Old High German in about 780AD is a good example. While the 
> setting and some characters are historical the main underlying 
story 
> is essentially wrong, putting the real events on its head. In this 
> case the legend was passed on orally only for some 300 years. For 
> most of the Icelanding sagas etc. this time-span can be 900 years.

*** Lays and poems keep better because they are put in a rigid frame
and do not change so easily as legends/stories not preserved in 
poetic form.



> In short, already by 800AD nobody in the Christian areas would have 
> dreamt of deliberately recording old Germanic legends and by 1250 
> many will already have been lost.  

**** Einar; In short, Scandinavia was NO Christian area around 800AD 
and not even in 900 AD.It was a firmly pagan area. Iceland was 
Christianized before Sweden and at a similar time as Denmark and 
Norway and Christianity was much more easliy accepted in Iceland than 
the other Scandinavian countries for the obvious reasons of that 
Christianity came to Iceland with the settlers and both Christianity 
and Paganism was practiced in Iceland from the beginning. Many 
influential settlers of powerful families were Christians.
In short,in 800 AD all Scandinavia was pagan(and in 900 AD too) and 
probably Iceland was the first of the Scand. countries to indroduce 
Christianity.
And most literature in Iceland was created in the 13th century about 
2-300 years after Christianity was accepted.

So why were these poems/legends not preserved within Scand 
chieftainly families but just the Icelandic ones? Scandinavia was a 
pagan area.!
And why did the majority of professional scalds come from Iceland?    
>From families were skaldic poetry had been composed in a professional 
way for generations back. If you could answer this I would be 
surprised because this is a mystery Scand. scholars can not solve
(except Barthi Guthmundsson)
And NB then Iceland had a population that was very small compared to 
other Scand. countries.

 **So I say in a polite way that the above argumentation by you is 
not valid.

> 
>  
> > I guess legends about Attila and the others were rather common as 
> > folktales and stories as would have been maybe normal. But such 
> > knowledge and material preserved in Iceland is not in such a 
> > category. As said before such material in all its volume had to 
be 
> > preserved by professionals in oral transmitting and oral > 
> preservation.
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask what do you mean by 'in such a volume'? The 
Nibelungenlied 
> alone is probably longer than all Iclanding sagas and legends 
> together.  

****Einar; So then it is thousands of pages???????? Well not the 
Nibelungenlied I know.
And this German poem could easily have been preserved within families 
with traditions in preserving such material. Just like the Icelandic 
families.
There is just no coincidence that the material in the Edda´s not 
preserved in Scandinavia(just as pagan as Iceland, and many parts 
much more soo,like East Sweden)was preserved in Iceland and within 
the Oddaverjar family of Snorri Sturluson. A family who had been a 
chieftain/aristocratic family for generations back and selv claimed 
to be descendants of Skjoldungar(and earls) which some scholars have 
connected to the Heruli.
> 
> Also, there is a large circle of tales and shorter legends. 
Consider 
> only the numberous Dietrich (Theoderich)-legends that are still 
> around.

***Einar. Still around? You mean preserved orally? I must be 
misunderstanding something here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
. Oddaverjar was 
> > considered by themselves to be descendants of Skjoldungar that is 
> > considered themselves to be descendants of the Heruli. 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the source that states the the Skjoldungar are the 
> descendants of the Heruli??? 

****Einar; Now I have to trust my memory. N.C Lukman claims so and 
did a lot of reaserch into that matter.. Claus Krag in his book from 
1991(about Ynglingar and Ynglinga traditions) does very,very much 
agree with him. And he is a respected scholar. Just like Lukman 
actually.
Another scholar with the name of I think Elias Wiesen(very likely not 
rightly written here) claims so too but I have not seen his writings.
I guess that because Claus Krag does accept Lukmans ideas and found 
them convincing I do guess that many other scholars do agree with him.
But as for now I do not know of other scholars.
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of 
> > calling them Heruli the name Skjoldungar was used.
> > 
> > 
> > Saga literature in Iceland could be created because of ancient 
> > knowledge preserved by descendants of the Heruli and their 
> traditions 
> > in oral preservation and because of Irish knowledge of writing 
and 
> > preserving knowledge in such a way.
> > That is at least the hypothesis that explains most of the 
problems 
> we 
> > have in a most satisfactory manner. And should therefore be 
adopted.
> > 
> > 
> > > > It comes as a natural step to assume and make a hypothesis 
then 
> > > that 
> > > > these chieftainly families had the Heruli as ancestors. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I would regard it as a natural step if it was an established 
fact 
> > of 
> > > early medieval Swedish history that Heruls made up the ruling 
> > elites 
> > > of East Scandinavia. However, my reading and from Oscar's 
> comments 
> > I 
> > > gather that this is not the case. Therefore I don't find this 
> > natural 
> > > at all.
> > > 
> >    *****Einar; It is very natural actually. Established facts are 
> no 
> > yardstick here. It was a established fact  until a few years ago 
> that 
> > Icelanders were just emigrated native Norwegians shopping a few 
> > slaves in Ireland on their way to Iceland recently being "found" 
by 
> a 
> > Norwegian. 
> 
>
> In other words the theory that Icelanders are partly decendants of 
> Eruli is 'cutting edge' research;-) ?

**** Einar; I do not understand what you mean here exactly so please 
be more specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These "established facts" were never any facts and nobody
> > believes this anymore.(Though some scholars pretend to to so) So 
we 
> > have to be careful sometimes about those "established facts"
> > 
> > If etymologically there is a strong conection between the word 
> > ´heruli,eruli´ to ´jarl,earl´ etc then that shows that
> > the Heruli 
> > chieftainly families kept on being the elité/ruling class after
> > their 
> > arrival to Scandinavia.
> 
> 
> That is not an established fact. In fact, I think it is quite 
> unlikely.

****Einar; Actually it is very likely. The story of the return of a 
part of the royal clan and their supporters from Thule (Procopius) 
actually shows that was exactly the case. They had obviously 
established themselves firmly within Scandinavia(the area they 
settled in) and therefore it is very natural to assume that the 
aristocratic Heruli families kept on being among the Scandinavian 
chieftainly  families. That is they became of course one of this 
families but had some distinct characteristics from them(at least the 
families having strong poetic traditions)
The etymology of the word jarl(earl) supports that too.

   ***What you find unlikely is on the contrary likely. And why 
unlikely?   What specifically is so unlikely?
What basis for that comment?
> 
> 
>                                             
> > And the fact that the Illyrian Heruli sent a embassy to 
Scandinavia 
> > to fetch one of their royal blood to become king over them proves 
> > that the aristocratic/royal families had kept on beeing the 
> > elité/overclass in Scandinavia too. Otherwise this travel of the 
> > Illyrian Heruls to Scandinavia and arrival of the royal candidate
> > (presumably with lots of people with him as warriors and other 
> > supporters) would not have happened. And could not have happened.
> 
> 
> Well, the Illyrian Heruls were a very minor 'bunch'. Being their 
king 
> amounted probably to less than being a local offical in other areas 
> of the Empire. Procopius told us that the Heruls had no respect for 
> their king; everybody could treat him as he wished, adding that 
they 
> killed Ochos for no particular reason. Not exactly an attractive 
> position if you are doing so well in Scandinavia, isn't it?

  ****Einar; You are always saying that Procopius is so very much 
unreliable but then you quote without reservations all the most 
unlikely things he states?? Like it was literally a matter of truth.
Who believes that they killed Ochus for no particular reason? Not me. 
There was a reason. He says:"no particular reason". What was the 
reason? Maybe the Heruli themselves would not have agreed here.They 
maybe looked at the reason as a valid one. Then there is of course a 
possibility he got killed because of a accident. Because of drinking 
and fighting. Who knows. This story has no particular relevance. Why 
did not Procopius say what the reason was? This is just unimportant 
as a event but important events happened later because of that event.
That is a embassy being sent to Thule etc. 

*** Thanks for your kind comments. Bless,bless Einar.
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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