[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

Thu Jul 11 21:03:45 UTC 2002

Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
bishopbry name.
Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
                     Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large 
issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro 
Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805, 
841) captain of the royal guard.

Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille 
giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count 
(916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo 
Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale 
and Tuy, duke.

Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo 
and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x 
Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira 
Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina// 
Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with 
issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of 
Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died 
933 

Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo 
Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)// 
Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint 
Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres 
(934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x 
Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
etc.

*A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

>What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
>Islamic rule"?
By issue I mean generation

> In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship 
>to Witika?
The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the 
Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of 
Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo 
de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but 
this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much 
confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.

Best Regards,

Carlos Carvalho

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> To Carlos Carvalho,
> 
> Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The
> center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain.
> The rule included much of present day Portugal (Coimbra=
> Conimbrica?). Witika ruled 697-710 (he died in February
> 710, presumably after being blinded by Roderich, the
> last Visigothic king) and he was the son of Egika,
> who died in 701 in Toledo. Did Witika have a brother?
> Have not been able to find out but maybe somebody on the
> list can provide the answer.
> 
> What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
> Islamic rule"?
> 
> Very little is known about Witika. Most information is related
> to about 100 years after his death (Chronicle of Mossaic (around
> 818).
> 
> In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship 
to Witika?
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil
> 
> 
> > This is my introducing message.
> > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, 
deriving
> > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of 
years 
> > as
> > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around 
Viseu 
> > area, 100
> > km from Porto.
> > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a 
church
> > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish 
> > occupation). The
> > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio 
Carvalho
> > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
> > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen 
documents 
> > by the
> > second quarter of the 12th century.
> > 
> > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
> > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of 
> > Coimbra (or
> > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via  Hermenegildo Mendes / 
> > Hermenegildo
> > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother 
> > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
> > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
> > 
> > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another 
> > delirious
> > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have 
evidence 
> > of
> > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to 
the 
> > region
> > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or 
even 
> > a
> > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for 
ignorance.
> > 
> > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group 
please 
> > let me
> > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, 
questions 
> > and (a
> > few) certitudes.
> >

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