[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

[faltin2001]

Hello all,

the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an 
interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be 
important to bear in mind:

Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae 
Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and 
Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has 
been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a 
distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves 
mainly as Spaniards. 

The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of Visigoths for the 
whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate 
Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the 
time of the Moslem conquest. However, Moslem leaders did claim decent 
from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In 
these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however, 
irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was 
important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own 
legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented) 
association with the previous dynasty. 

I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic 
identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably 
in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as 
legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as 
opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I 
think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families 
should mainly be seen in this context. They were more a reflection of 
Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected 
directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not 
change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in 
regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was 
mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only 
assumed importance in later centuries.

cheers,

Dirk

















--- In gothic-l at y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped at y...> wrote:
> 
>  Hi Ximenez:
> Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to 
some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
> Ben
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01 at m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
> I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos 
Carvalho)
> "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a 
Portuguese
> 
" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must 
have
> occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 
711.
> However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
> diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
> Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that 
 "the majority of Iberian 
["mtDNA"
> (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
> Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)." 
The
> study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
> originate in north Africa"
 "It seems therefore that the genetic
> contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has 
been
> considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the 
modern
> mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
> 
> On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite 
right. The
> presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in 
question in
> present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle 
Eastern
> populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
> indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East 
entered
> and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years 
before
> present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
> evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and 
Impressed
> Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
> respectively.
> 
> Enough for now-
> Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
> Cheers,
> Frithunanths Ximenez.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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