[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01 at m...> wrote:
> Dear Dirk,
> 
> faltin2001 wrote:
> 
> >  Hello all,
> >
> > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
> > interesting issue. However,
> 
> What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
> What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?


Hi F.E. Ximenez,

I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real 
or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in 
retrospect during the medieval period, when it was usefull as a non-
Muslem identity and legitimacy.  




> 
> > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
> > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
> > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which 
has
> > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
> > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
> > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no 
mentioning of
> > Visigoths for the
> > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a 
separate
> > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
> > time of the Moslem conquest.
> 
> SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
> 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE)  for not
> mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.


Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as 
Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating 
that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only 
natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman 
elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the 
term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for 
most of them.





> 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis) 
mentions
> certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths. 
One
> such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells 
us: "They
> wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
> embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two 
white
> asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days 
went
> about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 ) 
peculiar
> equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were 
identified
> as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over 
A as
> well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is 
that
> they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could 
not
> have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of 
leather
> straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
> Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919: 
42).
> The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still 
alive in
> 710 CE,  a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
> 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many 
others
> that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
> history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
> province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME 
THE
> URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
> MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
> Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
> ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS 
ATTESTED
> IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822 
CE.
> (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda 
reinstates
> the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
> "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE 
ORGANIZATION OF
> THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
> 


I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that 
I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .





> > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
> > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. 
In
> > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
> > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
> > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
> > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
> > association with the previous dynasty.
> >
> > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
> > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, 
probably
> > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were 
seen as
> > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
> > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
> > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble 
families
> > should mainly be seen in this context.
> 
> There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a 
great
> majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to 
have
> been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
> 


That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber 
elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between 
Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period. 




> > They were more a reflection of
> > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality 
connected
> > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course 
not
> > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families 
(especially in
> > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this 
was
> 
> > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
> > assumed importance in later centuries.
> 
> The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose 
that any
> individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
> (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous 
populations
> of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
> fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the 
40,000
> Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim 
to be
> of English descent, but is he really?.
> 


I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very 
problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost 
invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their 
decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate. A. Schwarcz 
has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that 
even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman 
aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th 
centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was 
something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the 
country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

cheers,
Dirk




> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped at y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Hi Ximenez:
> > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me 
to
> > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
> > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01 at m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
> > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
> > Carvalho)
> > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
> > Portuguese
> > > 
" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, 
must
> > have
> > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom 
in
> > 711.
> > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
> > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; 
Macaulay;
> > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that 
 "the majority of Iberian
> > ["mtDNA"
> > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and 
northern
> >
> > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 
1996)."
> > The
> > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages 
appear to
> > > originate in north Africa"
 "It seems therefore that the genetic
> > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
> > been
> > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
> > modern
> > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
> > >
> > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
> > right. The
> > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
> > question in
> > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
> > Eastern
> > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
> > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
> > entered
> > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
> > before
> > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
> > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
> > Impressed
> > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
> > > respectively.
> > >
> > > Enough for now-
> > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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