[gothic-l] Re: Digest Number 538

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >--- Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >>  Dirk,
> >>  I have difficulties with your interpretation of
> >>  authochtonous.
> >  >
> >>  I can agree that when the "Gothic league" was formed
> >>  in say about
> >>  year zero it was formed by groups living in the area
> >>  and in that
> >>  sense authochtonous for that century.
> >
> >*****GK: Yet also keep in mind, Tore, that if you wish
> >to identify the early Goths with the early Wielbark
> >culture, then you are talking about a very small area
> >indeed of Wielbark. Earliest Wielbark (phase A+B)
> >included a chunk of Pomerania plus about 70 kilometers
> >of the Lower Vistula from its mouth on the Baltic
> >southward. From the very beginning, the Goths (if that
> >is where they were) would have shared this territory
> >with other groups: Rugii, Lemovii, and Venedi. I find
> >it difficult to accept the notion that Maroboduus had
> >enough power to include the Goths into his empire, but
> >not enough to extend it a few kilometers further to
> >the coast. That is why I argued that perhaps we should
> >seek these earliest Goths further south, in the later
> >Wielbark area C, which in the period 0-50 AD was
> >occupied by the Przeworsk culture. But there are
> >difficulties here too, which I hope to settle in a
> >while after studying Kokowski's book on Przeworsk.
> >Note that it is only in area C of Wielbark that
> >peculiar "Scandinavian" aspects are archaeologically
> >identifiable after 50 AD. Though later there will also
> >be such "Scandinavian" indicators in many Wielbark
> >graves of Ukraine (along with strong Przeworsk
> >elements). So clearly our search for the early
> >Continental "Goths" is a very complicated enterprise.
> >We should proceed cautiously, step by step.******
> >
>
> George,
> I am looking at the area from a Gotlandic point of view. From there
I
> can identify close contacts from the Bronze age all the way to
later
> times.
>
> It is also possible to identify Gotlandic settlements on the easten
> and southern side of the Baltic. We lose track of settlements and
new
> appear some centuries later.
> I can't imagine that they moved back to Gotland. I would rather
think
> they were integrated with their environment. Perhaps took command
> over the neighbours.
>
> If we call them Wielbark, Przeworsk, Goths or something else I
can't
> see from my point of view. I can only compare objects and burial
> customs for certain time periods.
>
> Further we can identify that the culture we associate with the
Goths
> flowed back to Gotland in particular during the following centuries.



Tore,

what evidence do you have that the 'cultures associated with the
Goths' (i.e. Wielbark and later Chernyakhovsk) 'flowed back to
Gotland'? At what time did they 'flow' back to Gotland? Do you think
these cultures came from Gotland? Where on Gotland are Wielbark or
Chernyakhovsk type settlements and/or cemetaries?

Dirk







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