[gothic-l] Re: Possible Non Indo-European substrates in Germanic?

[llama_nom]

Dear Fernando,

Some words common to Celtic & Germanic, which according to "The
Celtic Realms" (Myles Dylon & Nora Chadwick, 1967), "may belong to
some northern European language of pre-Indo-European age":

Ir. biail, OHG bihal "axe"
Ir. lorg, ON lurkr "club"
Ir. luaide, MHG lot "lead"
Ir. fid, OHG witu "wood"
Ir. luib, Got. lubja- "herb"
Gaul. braca, OE broc "trousers" (borrowed from Gmc. > Celt.)
Ir. marc, OHG marah "horse"

As Francisc pointed out, some of the words you listed have
established IE roots.  Another is helm(et), cf. Lat. celare "to
conceal", etc.  Also, this encyclopedia article gives "knight" among
martial words, whereas it only acquired its warlike connotations in
English during the Middle Ages.  A handy link for English etymologies:

http://www.etymonline.com

Sorry I don't know any decent modern articles on this subject...

Llama Nom


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth at a...> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am trying to find reputable (recent) papers, books, authors as
> concerns possible - NON Indo-European - substrates in the Germanic
> languages.
> I have searched this list's archives to no avail, perhaps it is not
a
> very popular topic.
>
> A simplistic explanation of the theory of Non Indo-European
substrates
> in Germanic - follows.
> Some linguists think there are many words in the Germanic languages
> whose roots are difficult to identify.
> Some theorists have suggested that there might have been a people
> called the Aesir (Indo-European speakers) who displaced and or
> intermixed to some extent with a people called the Vanir. In this
> theory, the Vanir are speakers of non-Indo-European languages who
> could have been relatively autochthonous to Central, Northern and
> Western Europe and claimed by such theorists to be the source of the
> non IE substrate of Proto-Germanic. It may be of interest to remind
> readers that the Goths acclaimed their proceres (men of stature) as
> Ansis (demigods).
> One grouping indicative of the stated substrate are words having to
do
> with ships and the sea; i.e. (keel, oar, rudder, steer, and mast).
The
> latter are shared by almost all Germanic languages, however,
cognates
> and/or tenses for these specific words are not found in other
branches
> of Indo-European. Other such groups are those words dealing with war
> and weapons; e.g. the likes of (sword, shield, helmet, bow, and
> knight)yet another grouping are words dealing with animalia; (eel,
> carp, stork, and bear).
> A number of theories have been advanced about this hypothetical
> linguistic substrate. Some have referred to these unknown people as
> Folkish, because they believe folk to be a word of non-Indo-European
> origin; others refer to them as the Battle-axe people. The name
> Battle-axe people (corded ware culture) identifies widely-scattered
> Early Bronze Age sites in Europe. Burial sites containing the
> characteristic corded ware, impressed with cords in the unfired
clay,
> are known in a wide area in northern, central and westen Europe:
> Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Netherlands,
> northwest Germany, Denmark and southern parts of Norway and Sweden.
> One dismissive explanation is that even words known to have recent
> origins often have unknown or uncertain etymologies, and the
etymology
> of long established words may often be no more than guesswork, thus,
> it is unreasonable to expect to be able to precisely identify the
> origins of every word in a language with complete certainty.
> On the other hand, there has been a revival of interest in "contact
> linguistics" within this last decade, the latter interest has again
> opened up the question of non IE substrates, not only in Germanic
but
> in other IE languages.
> Should anyone know something about this topic please let me know.
>
> Cheers,
> F.E.J.D. IV



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