[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths not "Booted Out"

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at n...>
wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dirk,
>
> > Hi Ingemar,
> >
> > this is exactly what I find hard to believe. Papal support was of
> > little value to the Catholic Visigothic kings of the 7th century.
The
> > Catholic Visigothic church tried to remain as isolated from Roman
> > influence as possible. During the whole 7th century the Papal
Office
> > in Rome sent only a couple of letters to the Spanish church and
when
> > they did they were in one particular instance addressed to a
Bishop
> > who had died several years earlier, which demonstrated that the
Pope
> > was almost completely uninformed about the events in Spain. Thus,
it
> > is very difficult to see why and how a Visigothic Catholic king
could
> > derive support from a Pope who was not informed, but even
> > deliberately excluded from developments in Spain.
>
> As I told you before I make no real difference between the pope,
being
> head of the Catholic church, and the Church itself. The important
for
> these kings was the label Catholic instead of the "heretic" Arian.






But when the Visigothic kings were Arians, Arianism was the
mainstream chruch in Spain. Adopting Catholicism, i.e. the religion
of the vast majority of the Hispanic population facilitated the
integration of the Visigoths, which was an important precondition for
the great success of the Franks.









> They felt more similar their fellow robberkings around seeing how
they
> grasped power over large areas with clerical backing.





I think it is historically unsound to describe the Catholic kings
as 'robber kings', while constantly portraying Arian kings as
tolerant and open minded. Leovigild was Arian and keen to grasp as
much power as he possibly could. Also, you can apply the term robber
king to many of the Scandinavian rulers, even if they had no clerical
support. The term simply makes no historical sense.








This was also
> how the Merovingians and certainly the Carolingians succeded in
> grasping big power.



Well the early Merovingians had very little to no church support, but
were still busy grasping as much power as they could, making the
Merovingians realm into the only true European super power of late
antiquity.










Also the poor Langobards were forced into Catholicism.
>
>



Yes, poor poor Langobards and evil evil Catholics.;-)








> ...the persecution of the Jews and the Visigothic
> > nobles in Spain in the 7th century was not primarily due to the
> > conversion to Catholicism, but it was the result of the emergence
of
> > a stronger central kingship which happened already in Arian
times.
> > However, I agree that the conversion to Catholicism did reduce
the
> > king's reliance on the Visigothic nobles, which was, however, a
good
> > thing. After all the period of the early 7th century was one of
> > greatest strength and success of the Spanish/Visigothic state.
>


>  At least we seem to have something that we can agree on. I can buy
> your description above with exception of it being 'a good thing'.
The
> strenght and success during the early 7th c. was acceptable but what
> about the late part?












> >
> > The balance shifted in an unhappy way
> > > leaving the way free for the king to run for power like his
fellow
> > > Catholic kings and don't say the Toledo councils did not matter.
>
> > The councils where called in relatively infrequently and they
dealt
> > mostly with church matters.
>
> Yes, like banning Jews and similar questions transferring in reality
> power to the king with clerical backing. Why do you think the
> inquisition appeared just in Spain? There were also a considerable
> great number of councils.




I get back to you on the councils later. I will consult D. Claude on
this matter.

Cheers
Dirk






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