[gothic-l] Re: Pronouns and other questions

[llama_nom]

Hi Mike,

*hals         *halsos
hals          *halsans
*halsis       *halse
(frei)halsa   *halsam

Braune/Helm "Gotische Grammatik" cites _halsis_, but I can't seem to 
find that.  But dat.sg. _freihalsa_ clears things up.  Another clue 
is the fact that other Germanic languages have -s- rather than -r- 
here.

runs     *runeis
run      *runins
*runis   *rune
runa     *runim

Here the -s is just the nom.sg. inflection, and not part of the 
root, cf. OE ryne.

naus	 naweis
*nau	 nawins
*nawis	 *nawe
*nawa	 *nawim

Exactly as you had it, except that acc.sg. would have no ending.  
The form _nawis_ is recorded, but only as the f.nom.sg. of an i-stem 
adjective.

For nominatives ending -s, where the sibilant is part of the root, 
there is no general rule: some words have -z- in oblique cases, 
others -s-.  To see what is actually attested, you can search the 
Gothic corpus here:

http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html

Or look in Gerhard Koebler's dictionary, which gives all forms of 
the word that occur as well as etymological information:

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html

If doubts remain, the next step would be to compare cognate words in 
other old Germanic languages.  GK's site has a lot of other useful 
dictionaries--although some only have definitions in German.  You 
might also find something of interest in amongst this lot (my page 
of Gothic links):

http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/linkspage.htm

But the comparative method doesn't always work, for example Gothic 
dat.sg. nauþai, gen.sg. bloþis--where the equivalent forms in West 
Germanic have -d- (or later developments thereof). 


Incidentally, the nominal inflection -s itself goes back to 
Germanic -z, as can be seen from Old Norse.  With enclitic 
particles, Gothic fluctuates

sumanzuh
sumzuþ-þan
bijandzuþ-þan

sumsuh

Even in the same sentence:

jah silba gaf sumans apaustauluns, sumanzuþ-þan praufetuns, sumansuþ-
þan aiwaggelistans, sumansuþ-þan hairdjans jah laisarjans,
(Eph 7,11)


I wonder how the statistics compare...

Llama Nom




--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "seitokojiro" <MRemick01 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi, I'be been learning Gothic on and off for a few years and I've 
got 
> a few questions.
> 
> 1) How do you know whether to use pronouns (like is, ita, si) and 
> their respective demonstrative pronouns (sa, thata, so) when 
refering 
> back to someone or something aforementioned? It seems that they 
are 
> almost interchangeable sometimes. Is there some circumstance, for 
> example, where 'thai' would be preferable to 'eis', or is it 
simply a 
> matter of preference? 
> 
> 2) I've been searching through the list archives and I can't seem 
to 
> find David Salo's 11th lesson. I remember coming across it 
sometime 
> before, but I may be mistaken. Did he even get up to lesson 11?
> 
> 3) Would the s -> z change take place in masculine stems that end 
> is 's' therefore lacking the nom sing 's'? I'm not quite sure how 
to 
> decline them, which of these paradigms would be correct?
> hals	halzos
> hals	halzans
> halzis	halze
> halza	halzam
> or
> hals	halsos
> hals	halsans
> halsis	halse
> halsa	halsam
> 
> and
> 
> runs	runseis 
> runs	runsins
> runsis	runse
> runsa	runsim
> or
> runs	runzeis 
> runs	runzins
> runzis	runze
> runza	runzim
> 
> 4) I'm also having trouble with 'naus'. Is this paradigm correct?
> 
> naus	naweis
> naus	nawins
> nawis	nawe
> nawa	nawim
> 
> I think that's it for now. Thanks. 
> 
> -Mike





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