[gothic-l] Visigoths wasRe: Spanish surnames

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth at a...> 
wrote:
> Hello Leonardo,
> I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad 
that
> I stumbled on to it this morning.
> Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
> I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
> Gothia. 
> 
> >--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
> ><frithunanths_scandza at y...> >wrote:
> > 
> >Hails Allum! 
> > 
> >After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
> apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :) 
> > 
> >I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
> >But regarding a possible division where one part would speak 
Spanish
> >and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
> >"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
> >of that throughout history. 
> >But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
> >Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, 
> 
> F.E.J.D writes:
> Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
> their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
> especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest 
in
> those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
> best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to 
spark
> the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
> yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with 
your
> interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
> relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to 
others.
> Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
> of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that 
scholarship
> as you can. 
> It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
> positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
> allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
> granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
> concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the 
inadequately
> informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.
> 
> >the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the 
Iberian
> >Peninsula.
> 
> F.E.J.D. writes:
>  I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
> their people as the Clades Variana 



You mean 'the' Clades Variana in 9AD? the Cherusci (not Visigoths) 
against the Romans?








and other subsequent battles inform
> us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people 
and
> homeland in Gothispania. 



What is Gothispania? 









> They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines



The defeated both Vandals and Suebi in their capacity as Roman 
federate troops, and spend decades battling with the Byzantines.









> and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
> elements. 




Like in 507AD? In 507 the Visigoths were defeated decisively by the 
Franks and forced to retreat to Spain.









Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
> the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
> Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
> ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut 
(among
> others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
> Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
> highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
> resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
> had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in 
their
> tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
> Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
> Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
> territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time 
and
> space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families 
to
> take refuge there. 



Where did you take that from? Most Visigothic nobles had no reason to 
abandon their estates, because the Moors were mostly glad to let them 
stay on as owners. 








> Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
> Moors from taking those areas. 



It was probably mostly the typically independent minded mountain 
people who kept the Muslims out. The Muslims would probably have been 
able to take the regions, but they had to content with uprisings of 
Berbers, draught etc. 







> Those that remained in Moorish occupied
> lands did not fare as well. 




Most seemed to have fared very well among the Muslims, marring into 
Muslim families, retaining their estates.












The latter were subjected to extremely
> high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and 
even
> a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
> golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
> harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a 
short
> time after a great revolt ensued. 



This sounds very much like a propaganda story. Sources?







Such revolt and resistance to the
> Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions 
and
> relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
> Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
> dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle 
lines
> between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
> century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
> Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk 
and
> literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point 
of
> view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
> feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
> to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
> polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). 
Here
> I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, 
resistance
> to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the 
defeat
> at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic 
identity)
> the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
> their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
> and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
> horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths 
from
> the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
> under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), 




Pelagius' identity is mostly unkown. That he was grandson of 
Reccesvind is speculation at best. 







successfully expelled
> Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
> northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
> sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
> struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
> itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
> example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the 
remnant
> Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic 
people
> of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was 
the
> only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
> against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
> after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the 
council
> of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other 
vicarious
> entity but Alfons II  (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
> Reccared instituting 






To get from Alfons II to Reccared, you probably need a couple for 
more 'great-greats-'. Also, the exact decend of Reccared is not 
clear. Such claims to great ancestry should be seen mostly as 
political statements rather than geneological accuracy.







OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
> WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
> to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
> (especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
> fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend 
person
> and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
> there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by 
the
> descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
> ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
> and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
> well after 711.




I think this is mostly a recreated identity. Gothic identity in Spain 
was vanishing already in the course of the 7th century under 
Visighothic rule. The various council documents show that the Goths 
regarded themselves as Hispanics already at that time.  







> 
> >This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a 
cultural/religious
> >point of view, interesting people –cut-
> 
> F.E.J.D. writes:
> Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
> also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced 
as
> a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
> learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
> through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
> artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
> Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
> relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the 
preservation
> of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
> synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
> glue that held all of the latter and their people together through 
so
> much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
> asking questions about them





Now you are surprised about their greatness and glory yourself aren't 
you? ;-) I wonder how any human being on earth can compare to the 
mighty, intelligent, thoughtfull, glorious master race of the 
Visigoths?



> 
> >who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
> >people(specially from the church...). 
> 
> F.E.J.D. writes:
> Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
> ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
> generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their 
pros
> and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
> contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
> interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
> latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the 
faculties
> of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
> chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see 
that
> what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
> Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
> stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
> intellectual is inescapable. 
> 





At least their genetic contribution to modern Spaniards will have 
been rather minute.

Before you can even start to understand the contribution of the 
Visigoths to the hisotry and culture of the Spanish peninsula, I 
think you have to drop all this partiotic glorification. The truth, 
as often, lies somewhere between your wishful thinking and those who 
discount everything non-Roman. 

Certainly, the Visigoths had to overcome great difficulties. After 
king Euric, they were cast into disarray. Chased from Gaul by the 
Franks and remaining so weak that the Ostrogoths had to run Spain for 
them for a while. Much of the 6th century Visigothic reign remained 
chaotic. Only at the very end of the 6th century do we see a 
resurgens of Visigothic kingship in Spain. Their conversion to 
Catholicism at the time was certainly helpful, but they nontheless 
failed to rally the Spanish population as a whole. Large parts of 
Spanish society, including many Visigothic nobles prefered foreign 
rule to that of their own kings, which inevitably led to the 
catastroph in 711. 


Cheers
Dirk 







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