[gothic-l] Re: what is the real objection against the Scandiavian origin of the Goths?

[vendelkrka]

With all due respect, but the unverifiability claim is a "strawman".
You can not call it a "hypothesis" because the hypothesis is that 
Jordanes account was wrong. That is why it is a strawman.

There is both archaeological, toponomical and other linguistic 
support. Moreoever, "certainty" is a rare animal in research. There 
are many generally accepted "facts" that are also hard to verify.

I should perhaps rephrase my question:

Why are the demands for proof so high when the Scandinavian origin 
of the Goths is concerned, and why are some (especially German) 
scholars so categorically against it?

cordially,
Vendelkråka

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, macmaster at r... wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian 
origin
> for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable.  The 
archaeological
> remains from the Vistula and elsewhere are probably Gothic but, 
being that
> of a preliterate people, are impossible to verify as being from the
> speakers of any language.
> Also, it's important not to have too much faith in what Jordanes 
writes
> regarding Gothic origins: while he uses what are probably real 
sixth
> century traditions regarding Gothic origins, he does place the 
migration
> out of Scandinavia impossibly early (several centuries before the 
Trojan
> War!!!) and identifies the Goths with practically every pre-Hunnic 
steppe
> people (most of whom were Iranic rather than Germanic).
> At best, all that can be said for certain about the early Goths is 
that
> they probably came from Scandinavia, etc; before the third century,
> everything is hypothetical.
> So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it 
cannot
> advance from hypothesis to fact.
> 
> Tom MacMaster
> 
> Ingemar Nordgren said:
> >
> >
> >  Hi Vendelkraka and Tore!
> >
> >  I agree with Tore and his  reccomendation of literature is 
good. Still
> >  I must point  out that I have just such a theory that 
Vendelkraka asks
> >  for. It is the main object with my  book 'The Well Spring of the
> >  Goths'  that is available as both paperback and e-book on most 
net
> >  book stores.
> >
> >  Best
> >  Ingemar
> >
> >
> >  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm  wrote:
> >  > Hi,
> >  > I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic 
area with
> >  > Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the 
forming of
> >  > the Goths.
> >  > It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
> >  > archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the 
last 30 years
> >  > fully accept it.
> >  >
> >  > However, the problem is more complicated than most people 
think. The
> >  > contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and 
some
> >  > costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.
> >  >
> >  > Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
> >  > 
http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm
> >  >
> >  > Tore
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >  I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the 
Scandinavian
> >  > >  origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why 
some scholars
> >  > >  are so categorically against it.
> >  > >
> >  > >  The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the 
Germanic
> >  > >  languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula 
basin from
> >  > >  somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names 
Götaland and
> >  > >  Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the 
origin. If we
> >  > >  combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more 
convincing.
> >  > >  Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common 
with North
> >  > >  Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
> >  > >
> >  > >  Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as 
convincing theory
> >  > >  about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
> >  > >
> >  > >  My impression is that the archaelogical objections are 
carefully
> >  > >  limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the 
period 600 BC-
> >  > >  300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
> >  > >
> >  > >  So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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