for gothic words; atta

Mon Aug 29 05:48:30 UTC 2005

**********

Of course, I have to beg your pardon. 
My remark on the Turkic derivation of <atta> 
was advisedly provocative, though it did, 
thanks to you, attain the goal. 
Together with the previous Llama Nom's observation, 
your productive critique and exhaustive references 
make me to discard my supposition. 
I am very grateful to you, both.

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Palannir
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:22 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: for gothic words; atta

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov at i...> wrote:
> 
> ****************************************************************************************
> Derivation of Gothic <atta> from Indo-European is a commonly accepted 
> explanation, which however, as it is typical for many Indo-European 
> explanations, explains nothing in fact.
> Why other Germanic languages did not accept this stem? 
> Why this stem did not appear in Latin, Greek, Celtic, Baltic, 
> and other Indo-European language groups except for Russian <otec> 
> (along with the elder form <bat'a>, the latter seeming to be a cognate 
> to Indo-European <pater> and Germanic <fader>)?
> In my opinion, Gothic <atta> together with Russian <otec> 
> should have been produced from Turkic <ata> with the same meaning father. 
> The Turkic origin could explain the limited influence upon solely those 
> most eastern Germanic and Slavonic languages.
> 
> Vladimir

Vladimir, first you make an unwarranted assertion and then, you get the facts wrong.
As Llama Nom has already pointed out, that stem *is* found in other Germanic languages.
A quick look at the evidence (as, e.g. presented in the standard etymological dictionary for 
Indo-European, Pokorny's "Indogermanisches Etymologisches WГrterbuch") illustrates why 
the IE etymology is commonly accepted.
There is OldFrisian _aththa_ and OHG _atto_ 'father, ancestor'. The word also occurs 
in Latin _atta_ m. 'father', Greek _Г?tta_ 'dear Father, VГ?terchen', Osset. _ada_ idem, as well 
as in Albanian _at_ 'father' and in Hittite _attas_ 'father'.
Derivatives of this are also widely attested. Feminine forms are found in OldIndic _attГ?_ 
'mother, older sister', _attih_ 'older sister'. Other derivatives are e.g. Greek _attein_ (acc.) 
'grand-father' OldFrisian _Г?dila_ 'grand-grand father' and many more.
The word (just like, e.g. OldIndic _tatГ?-_, Greek _tГ©tta/tata_ 'father', Latin _tata_, Cymr. 
_tad_ etc.) is a hypokoristikon in origine.
Due to its nature (children's language/hypokoristikon) it isn't surprising that it occurs in 
the same or similar form in many languages of the world. There is, e.g. Elamite _atta, 
Hungarian _atya_, Turkish _ata_, Vasconian _aita_ etc. 'father'.
Given the ample evidence of this world in Indo-European languages (it's found in the 
oldest attested langugages like Hittite, Indo-Iranian and Greek) anything but positing it as 
Proto-Indo-European would seem foolish.
Assuming a loanword from Turkish doesn't, in my opinion, make any sense as it doesn't 
explain the IE forms. Whereas the IE etymology accounts beautifully for the actual 
evidence. It's hardly likely that there were adstrate/substrate languages (which we don't 
know for the most part) that by chance would yield identical sounding forms for Greek, 
Latin, Indic, Hittite etc.
One may, of course, always ask why certain words fall out of fashion and others not. This 
isn't the place to speculate on it but let's note that such things do happen. E.g. the Latin 
_ignis_ 'fire' doesn't survive into Romance languages. They normally continue _focus_.
Why Wulfila would choose to use _atta_ rather than _*fadar_ is a good question. Maybe it 
was a more 'endearing' term and hence he felt it was more suitable for the christian God. 
Still, _atta_ seems to have been the prevalent word for 'father'. Whether or not we can see 
'turkish' influence in that cannot be conclusively answered, I think. Contact existed with 
the Huns but, AFAIK, it isn't clear what language they spoke. The Avars were probably a 
turkish tribe but contact with them wasn't prolonged. However that may be, the IE 
etymology can hardly be doubted, as is true for most IE etymologies, despite often 
uninformed claims to the contrary.

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