*gutiska vs.*gutisko - the glorious east

[akoddsson]

Hails Llama.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell at o...> wrote:

> Thanks Tore,
> 
> So, if Swedish 'gotiska' is just taken from Latin via German, we 
can leave that out of the equation.  Then we're left with Icelandic 
and Gutnish which both agree on including an -n- in adjectival 
forms.  Old Gutnish even adds the -n- in a compound: gutnalþing. 

Yes, but here from the gen. n-stem plural *gutano (>gutna) - thing 
of the goths, and thus not a parallel construction. 

> But, more revealingly, Hlöðskviða, the epic poem preserved in 
Hervarar saga, has Gotþjóð = Go. Gutþiuda. 

Yes, the word occurs also in atlakvida, hamdismal, gudrunarhvot, 
more than one song of gudrun, voluspa, and, if I recall right (no 
book in front of me now ;), sigurdar kvida and a few others to boot, 
including the corrupted form godthiod. 

About hlodskvida, I will mention that I am working, slowly, on a 
norse reconstruction of the poem (very laboursome and frustrating, I 
might add), as parts of it, including the middle and final sections, 
are so poorly attested as to make a serious student cry - due, no 
doubt, to loss of manuscripts, bad copying habits and the, quite 
probably, late commiting of the material to writing. To name just 
one pitiful example, the genitive of the name hlodr occurs only 
once, whether in Jon Erlendsson's copy or Pals I do nor recall, and 
then only in prose: 'hlaud'. This is clearly a mistake. Properly, 
the genitive should be hladar (or hlathar by the writing tradition 
using medial th for eth - no difference). No asterik necessary here, 
as we know how these u-stem names declined in norse - they all took 
gen -ar, even the names that later adapter gen -s from the a-stem 
declension are earlier attested with -ar: thorvardarson/sunr vs. 
later thorvardsson, sigurdarson/sunr vs. later sigurdsson (even 
sigvardar is attested), thormodar vs. later thormods, etc. etc. 
Thus, my formal title for the poem is:

hladar kvida heidreks arfa

heidreks arfi occurs in the poem as his epithet, much like gissur 
grytingalidi (same poem), helgi hundingsbani (compare helga kvida 
hundingsbana - compare also the alliteration in fornyrdislag meter, 
not needed in a title, but nice in boths these names - something 
which I think could actually be used in the oral tradition from 
which these pieces come, and which probably had somewhat variable 
names for certain pieces:

helga kvida 
hundinga bana

hladar kvida
heidreks arfa

Begin recitation before the assembly...

In reconstructing this poem, I am using the old icelandic of about 
1100, which shows exceedingly few changes from the common old west 
norse of about 1000. One example of change from the year 1000 is the 
conjunction ok instead of auk, except when initial and stressed 
(example: auk naer aftni - havamal). Thus I write things like aftni 
instead of aptni, article hinn instead of enn or inn, hovamol (with 
lengthening marks over both o's and hooks under). Simply put, I can 
get away with it because it is attested. I can wave books at those 
who want to make my text somewhat younger and say, like a preacher 
quoting the bible, 'but on page 67, line 9, it says....' ;) Thus, my 
version is dangerously close to the tongue of the last heathen west 
norse speaking generation, a handful of tiny changes aside. I could 
throw these out and write things like heidriks for heidreks, or auk 
for ok, dat pl goum for grom - long u-mutated a 'grey', etc.etc. and 
take my chances, but then I would have become a motorcycle preacher 
and start riding around to distant sites quoting stones. I imagine 
that the academic press headline might read something like this: 
'stoneage linguistic fundamentalist stoned to death online by skin 
and paper wielding peers' ;) Ideally, we should be able to get away 
with heidriiks - long i, as well.

> As regulars will know, Matthew has in the past proposed *gutrazda 
as a possible name for the language, by analogy with Go. Gutþiuda.  

Sure. Any term meaning 'language' prefixed by 'gotish', whether 
razda, tuggo or whatever, in so far as the words mean 'language' 
should be appropriate. We know this from other germanic language, 
and the goths probably had a rich vocabulary, and poetic traditions, 
just like their germanic brethren from elsewhere did. Of course, as 
we are not native gothic speakers, we probably do not have a feel 
for the relative shades of mundane or poetic quality implied by one 
or another term for 'language' prefixed by 'gotish'. Nevetheless, 
correct terms for 'language', correctly declined with the 'gotish' 
adjective in place and likewise correctly declined, should make our 
meaning perfectly clear to any speaker and meet with no opposition, 
except perhaps for the odd foreign accent. Thus, we should really be 
able to describe the tongue accurately in several ways using terms 
for 'language' and 'gotish'. How far we can get away with using stem 
formations with gut-, like *gutrazda or feminine abstract *gutisko, 
is a different question. I think that they probably had one or more 
abstract formations of this type, but it is hard to say which ones. 

> Alternatively, thinking about a substantivised adjective, we could 
point to the lack (as far as I know) of any -n- in the adjectival 
forms used by Latin and Greek authors contemporary with the Goths.  
This might suggest *gutisko rather than *gut(a)nisko.  Or maybe 
these are just be new formations in Latin and Greek based on the 
singular noun *guta.  Likewise with the plural forms Lat. Gothi, Gr. 
Gotthoi, beside Gotones--unless the Goths themselves had an 
alternate strong plural.

My gut intinct, less than native, tells me that the goths called 
themselves *gutans, sg *guta - compare lat. gotones and norse gotar, 
reformed pl from proto-norse *gotan after loss of -n, indirectly 
attested by the norse gen pl gotna (< PN *gotano), attested widely, 
but earliest on the 'eggjum' stone from sogn ok firdirnir in norway 
(c650-700). See also old english. Whatever other formations other 
germanic might have used about the goths, the goths' own usage must 
have had something to say about how other germanics, who had the 
same kinds of declensional categories, described them. Also, I 
think, the term 'goths' was firmly ingrained in poetic tradition 
throughout germania, english and norse traditions being surviving 
attestations of this. In norse, the term is constantly used in the 
meaning 'men' and appears on the basis of attestation to have been 
thus used from ancient times. They may not have been alone in being 
goths after their own linguistic habits. My personal theory is that 
the goths' tragedy, violent conflicts with non-germanics (and, no 
doubt, other germanics - but this is not unique to them, but common 
to all germanics), and dramatic demise fed the papermill. They were, 
at least orginally, scandinavians (I am not following the modern 
geographic/political usage of the term 'scandinavian' here, but am 
refering to an older nordic germania that included not only gotland, 
but the territories on the other side of the baltic as well) - what 
this means is that stories and events pertaining to them, and then 
esspecially the southern group, spread like fire in scandinavia - 
the native language channels were constantly open, just like modern 
news reports on major events. Now, consider how was and tragedy goes 
strait to the top of the news and stays there as long as there is 
anything to report, and even longer still. Folk take sides, want to 
get involved, feel themselves deeply involved somehow. Thus, I do 
imagine that other germanics, especially scandinavians, did in fact 
sit on the sidelines and cheer for the goths, shouting for the home 
team against the enemies, and even occasionally sending new players 
who failed to inherit farms or just had a lust for danger or wealth. 

> We also have the prefix Hraiþ- on the Rök stone: Hraiþmaraz, the 
Gothic sea, corresponding to the OE gen. pl. Hræda in Widsith (see 
Chambers, Widsith, p. 252).  A poetic word for Goths, although 
Reiðgotaland is also the proper name of the Gothic realm in Hervarar 
saga.  This would give Go. *Hraideis, supposing it to be an i-stem.  
(*Hraide razda, *Hraidirazda, *Hraidisko, *Hraidigut((a)n)isko?  
More often Anglo-Saxon authors modified the word by folk-etymology 
to Hreþ-"glory", just as Snorri may have taken Reiðgotaland to mean 
the Gotland that you could ride across, i.e. the land, as opposed to 
Eygotaland "Island Gotland" which comprised the islands of the 
legendary King Goti's realm: ''Í þann tíma var kallat allt meginland 
þat er hann átti Reiðgotaland, en eyjar allar Eygotaland.''  Any 
more possibilities?

Sure, but about the whereabouts of reidgotaland and eygotalnd. Not 
originally as in Snorri, I think, as in his time reidgotland had 
long since ceased to exist, and gotland was but one island and no 
longer enough to bare the name eygotaland. Originally, I think 
(please read 'my opinion' and do not ask for sources, as none can be 
found), it was:

hreidgotaland - approx. from the baltic coast opposite gotland to 
the vistula-region and beyond - in short, whereever there were goths 
found in this area before the poles, etc..

eygotaland - gotland and all other islands masses off the coast of 
the baltic where goths could be found, etc..

Perhaps the whole area could be called hreidgotaland - term later 
transfered to denmark after the demise of hreidgotaland due to the 
constant persistance of the term in linguistic usage, especially in 
norse heathen poetic tradition, where gotthiod functioned as a kind 
of heroic saga nation, descended from the gods and to which all true 
sons of the north were supposed to belong, the nation of *wodans - 
the supreme god (closely associated with goths in the whole norse 
tradition), symbolizing all things noble in the minds of the norse 
heathens and to which they owned their loyal support, finances and 
arms. The only problem was that hreidgotaland had ceased to exist as 
a geographical reality, being relegated to poetic tradition in the 
hands of unconverted norse infidels and the term later misapplied by 
their newly converted descendants. Now, in support of my theory that 
hreidgotaland was the region just south of the baltic, but including 
somehow eygotland - as far east as most norse could imagine, and at 
the eastern borders of the germanic realm, as far away as any folk 
could be said to be of the same stock, tongue and faith, I cite the 
following piece of slender evidence from vafthrudnismal, a heathen 
norse religious poem from old oral tradition, where the god Odin is 
in discussion with the giant Vafthrudnir. There the light of dawn is 
described as rising with the hreidgotar (h required gue to the rules 
of alliteration). Dawn rises in the east, the sun rides from the 
east - therefrom come the horses drawing day and sun. 

Let quote and translate it when I get my hands on the passage again. 

(with h-, as on the røk-stone)

Yes, as in vafthrudnismal, also. 

> *Merigge razda?  *Taírwigge razda?  Anything else we can rule 
out?  What exactly is going on in OE?  What can the continental 
Germanic languages tell us here?

Let me ponder that one.

Regards,
Konrad

> Llama Nom
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore at g...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > This is the old confusion. Never mix Gotland with Sweden. It was 
> two  
> > different countries until Sweden incorporated Gotland in 1679.
> > The languages are different.
> > The Gotlandic words are Guta lagh, Gutland, gutniscr mathr, 
> ogutnjscr  
> > mathr,
> > 
> > What they call it in Sweden I don't know. Gothic is the latin 
word  
> > which the Germans adopted and spread to the Swedish language in 
the  
> > Middle Ages.
> > 
> > Tore
>






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