Boz = Bus < *Baus?
Егоров Владимир
vegorov at IPIRAN.RU
Fri Jul 21 05:35:48 UTC 2006
**********
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Hi Tore!
You are right, the church Pokrova Bogoroditsy (i.e. of the Blessed Virgin's Protection) on Nerl built by Andrey Bogolyubsky has almost original view except for internal paintings, which are lost now. Note please, it is very similar to the Dmitrievsky cathedral that exposes the architectural style of the 12th century in northeastern Russia. However, the ornamental patterns of both churches differ, with the carvings of the Dmitrievsky cathedral being unique for Russia.
Haven't you seen the church Pokrova Bogoroditsy on Nerl with your own eyes? It is situated near the village Bogolyubskoye, only 2 km from Vladimir to the east (though plus 1.5 km on foot across a floodable plain).
Which church appeared to your mind most similar to contemporary Gotlandic churches?
Vladimir
-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 1:59 AM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Boz = Bus < *Baus?
Hi again Vladimir,
The small church Pokrov Bogoraditsky on the river Nerl founded in
1165 is still intact with plenty of reliefs.
see http://www.stavgard <http://www.stavgard.com/gotmedeltid/gotkyrkor_/ryskkyrkokonst_/> .com/gotmedeltid/gotkyrkor_/ryskkyrkokonst_/
storfurstd/default.htm page 10 (Swedish).
Tore
Hi Vladimir,
The Uspenskij cathedral and the Demetrius cathedral are according to
my records from the 12th century with facial reliefs like those on
some churches in Gotland from the same period.
Among the reliefs there is one of Alexander the great and his space
travel.
Also Gotland wawered in the 12th century between the Orthodox
Christianity and Catholicism. You can see it on the churches. There
was a peace treaty between the Gotlanders and Heinrich Löwe of Saxony
in Artlenburg 1161. After that Catholic monks started to enter Gotland.
Tore
On Jul 19, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Егоров Владимир wrote:
> **********
>
> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
> com:office:office" />
>
> Hi Tore!
>
> Oh, you are so sure I have the Vasiliev's book! Of course not. The
> first preliminary version of the future book was published in the
> USSR with very limited circulation in a special purpose edition
> "Proceedings of the Academy of the material culture" in 1921 (Part
> I) and 1927 (Part II) years. That was all. I guess the full version
> appeared only in English and too far from Moscow. Your extracts
> give a good way to get acquaintance with the book, and I am very
> grateful to you.
>
> Generally speaking, there is a great problem as there are two
> historical sciences, European (or Universal) and Russian (or
> Soviet), almost not intersecting. I hope such visits as your one to
> Vladimir and Suzdal would promote breaking the secular ice.
> (Unfortunately an analogous visit to Sweden and Gottland is beyond
> my possibilities.) By a coincidence, I also was in Vladimir and
> Suzdal a month before you. I am not a specialist in architecture,
> but as far as I remember, no old churches are preserved from the
> 12th century in their primeval form. Both towns had been founded
> just on the edge of 11th and 12th centuries and were reduced to
> ashes several times. Maybe a very good exception represents the
> Dmitrievsky Cathedral, more exactly the remainder of the original
> cathedral. Perhaps you have noted an unusual type of the cross over
> it. Instead of a conventional orthodox slanting bar there is
> something like a half-moon bearing a definite resemblance to the
> Moslem crescent. Old Kiev's Russia wavered in the 11th century
> between the Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Old northeastern Rostov's
> Russia wavered in the 12th century between the Orthodox
> Christianity and Islam, with both faiths having been rather united
> and mixed than opposed one to another.
>
> Thank you for the references.
>
> Vladimir
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com [mailto: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com]On
> Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:48 AM
> To: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Boz = Bus < *Baus?
>
> Hi Vladimir,
>
> You of course have Vasilievs book The Goths in the Crimea from 1936.
> I have some extracts on http://www.stavgard< http://www.stavgard <http://www.stavgard.com/> .com/
> Gotland/beowulf_/> .com/Gotland/beowulf_/
> crimea/default.htm
>
> in the foreword to the Guta lagh written down about 1220 it says. "So
> bygthus thair that firir. oc enn byggia oc enn hafa thair sumt af
> waru mali"
>
> We have in Germanic-L extensively discussed the return of the Heruls
> to Sweden in the 6th century and there establishing the Vendel
> culture.
>
> I have also published "The origin of Svear".
>
> http://www.stavgard < http://www.stavgard <http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/> .com/Gotland/parla_/svear/
> default.htm> .com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm
>
> By the way middle of June I visited Vladimir and Suzdal in order to
> compare the 12th century churches with the Gotlandic churches of the
> same time.
>
> Tore
>
> On Jul 17, 2006, at 2:32 PM, ?????? ???????? wrote:
>
> > **********************<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-
> > microsoft-com:office:office" />
> >
> > Hi, Tore!
> >
> > What sources do you mean? What are the particular evidences? It is
> > really very interesting.
> >
> > In connection with the 12th c., I can suggest the Russian princedom
> > Tmutarakan' (Greek Tamatarcha) on the eastern coast of Kerch strait
> > between the Black and Azov seas (Greek Bosporos Kymmericos). The
> > start date for that princedom is unknown. The commonly accepted
> > time point is 970 AD when the Russian prince (knyaz') Svyatoslav
> > (Sphendostlabos in Greek documents) totally destroyed the Khazar
> > kingdom (kaganate) and conquered almost all northern Caucasus. Last
> > notices about that princedom relate to the XIII c. In the middle
> > XII c., a very active and enterprising prince Oleg (with the
> > nickname Gorislavich) ruled in Tmutarakan'. With his residence in
> > Tmutarakan', he bereaved a half of Russian territory of Yaroslav
> > the Wise (the son and heir of Vladimir the Baptizer). Of course,
> > the official Russian history assumes all Russian rulers always
> > speaking Russian as a Slavic language, but the evidence of
> > Constantine VI (Porphyrogenete) allows us to assume them speaking
> > Germanic (see "De administratio imperio", chapter 9) though in the
> > middle X c., i.e. two centuries earlier.
> >
> > The question is very interesting for me. I developed recently a
> > hypothesis that (of course, in brief) Tamatarcha was occupied by
> > the Goths and Heruls in the early IV c. and became a "piratical
> > base" for their sensational raids against Pitius and then Greece
> > and Aegean islands. Later, having returned to southern Sweden, the
> > Black Sea (i.e. former Gothic) pirates provoked there the so-called
> > Vendel culture of the VI c. Fantastic? Maybe. But not quite
> > impossible.
> >
> > Vladimir
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com>
> s.com [mailto: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%
> 40yahoogroups.com> s.com]On
> > Behalf Of Tore Gannholm
> > Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 5:25 PM
> > To: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Boz = Bus < *Baus?
> >
> > Hi,
> > This is very interesting. We know from Gotlandic sorces that the
> > Gotlanders in the 12th century met people at the Black Sea speaking
> > their language. Is there anything more written about it?
> >
> > Tore
> >
> > On Jul 15, 2006, at 1:43 PM, ualarauans wrote:
> >
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com>
> > s.com, Tore Gannholm <tore at ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > From which century is the source you refer to?
> > > >
> > > > Tore
> > > >
> > >
> > > From the 11th, if I don't mistake
> > >
> > > Ualarauans
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
More information about the Gothic-l
mailing list